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Old 10-29-2009, 07:16 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWHouston View Post
Rick,

(on your second post)
I would say no on the Pre-Amp up front, again using the KISS principal, give a simple system it a try. It's usually not all that much trouble to install an Amp once one gets things set up, and the need is clear.
However, at one point, I might have said that an amp may be needed, but now, I'm really having second thoughts about that, given that the criteria I've used, seemingly is questionable.
But to answer your question directly, IF i were to think of an Amp to apply here, it might be the...
Winegard AP-8700
Bingo!

My goal is to receive all my locals with a single antenna and *no* rotor. I've worked hard to get to this point where I have a workable solution for all but Ch 47. I can receive it just fine but lose it due to high distribution losses. Using Holl_ands calculations, I can add an AP-8700 without overloading the pre-amp or overloading the tv tuners. Ch47 would be retained since the 8700 would cover the distribution losses. Alternatively, one could use a distribution amp and achieve the same result. My situation is a classical case where amplification is needed in a high signal strength area.

Best,

Rick
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Old 10-29-2009, 07:28 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Static At All View Post
There is no pre-amp out there that is recommended with these kind of signal strenghts as it will only make things worse. If you do desire some of the weaker stations, you will need to rely on proper antenna selection for any chance of reliable reception. (Been there/done that more than once).

If you do find a need for additional gain to feed multiple splits, a distribution amp is a much better choice in this situation. You should be able to feed at least 4 splits without one.
You bring up excellent points No Static At All. An amplifier should not be the first tool grabbed from the toolbox but it can be good choice to resolve issue(s). There are higher gain antennas for ch 47 such as the XG-91 than my DIY antenna. However, XG-91 has a narrow beamwidth and would require the use of a rotor. Since we desire to record OTA with dvr's, using a rotor is problematic for meeting our interests.

You bring up the excellent point that is possible to overload the amplifier and/or the tv tuner if too large an amp is used in a high signal strength area. I have followed the advice of respected engineer and done the calculations for tuner/pre-amp overload. A mid range pre-amp or distribution amp can be used without overloading the tuner or amp.

The top five locals all have 30 dB or higher margins to dropout. If they were all I wanted, then there would be no need for an amplifier. I could still have over 10 dB margin to dropout on these channels after accounting for distribution losses.

Best,

Rick
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Old 10-29-2009, 08:33 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Thanks Rick,

I was referring to the OP's report. I didn't see yours. The 8700 is a great choice for your situation.
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Old 10-29-2009, 08:37 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Ok, thanks!
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Old 10-30-2009, 07:46 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Well, I wouldnt recommend an amplifier for the OPs if using one TV, however if using multiple TVs then amplification further down the coax line can help (classic distribution amp).

Ive also encountered situations where when using one TV, an amplifier in front of the TV(down the coax line) helps. The ultra low noise amplifiers like the KitzTech, especially. (or Verstärker, ReseachComm)

The best amp I have is a Motorola BDA S1 GASFet bi-directional cable modem capable job, spec'd 2 dB noise figure.

Last edited by EscapeVelocity; 10-30-2009 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 10-31-2009, 11:02 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Rick,

Give me a while longer on that Spreadsheet, I will have some questions if you don't mind, but in the meantime...

Back to your second post on your setup...
Did you/might you have considered the...
Winegard AP-4700
in stead of the 8700 ?

Have a good Day !
S.W.
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Old 10-31-2009, 11:40 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWHouston View Post
Rick,

Give me a while longer on that Spreadsheet, I will have some questions if you don't mind, but in the meantime...

Back to your second post on your setup...
Did you/might you have considered the...
Winegard AP-4700
in stead of the 8700 ?

Have a good Day !
S.W.
Hi SW,

Yes, the 4700 (UHF only pre-amp) is also a possibility versus the 8700 (UHF & VHF pre-amp). It is possible to overload a preamp on either or both UHF and VHF. Using the spreadsheet calcs, I am below the maximum input for both VHF and UHF. Since I have high distribution losses, it makes sense to me to use a combo pre-amp.

Feel free to post your questions on Holl_ands spreadsheet here in this thread or via PM.

Best,

Rick
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Old 10-31-2009, 05:54 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IDRick View Post
..... First, I do not believe the AD specs on the DB-8. It does not have a 100 degree beamwidth. ....
Rick
Rick,

A little OT for the thread at hand....

This subject just came up on one of the other forums.

I've looked all over AD's website and nowhere do they claim such a beam width for the DB8. So far, I can't find ANY claim of a beam width on their site for the DB8, either now or in the last several years (searched via archive.org). Other than online resellers erroneously claiming such a beam width, I can't find such a reference.

Based on polar plots they sent me a while back, it appears to have a BW of around 20-35 deg depending on frequency.

Just trying to figure out where that 100 degree number came from.

Quote:
From experience and other's statements, reception of HiVHF has always been a little sketchy on the "Bow" Type antenna, though the Mfg imply they do it.
Ironically, I was playing with a DB8 at my sister's farm out in the middle of nowhere, Missouri today. I had the DB8 pointed at St Louis and was pleasantly surprised to receive KRCG-13 (VHF-12) from Jefferson City with the antenna either pointed at St Louis (about 60 miles) or at Jeff City on my Artec T18AR USB tuner. My Sencore's reading showed that the "real" gain on VHF-12 was about -10 dBd but, even at 41.7 miles (TVF NM of 17.5), that little T18AR still picked it up without errors. KOMU-8 (56 miles, NM -2.3) was completely absent on the DB8 but was easily caught by pointing a C5 at Columbia instead of the DB8.

TVFool plot for that location: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8adf782ae24e24

Sencore's BAR scan of the DB8 pointing at St Louis:
[IMG][/IMG]

Sorry about the legibility - the well-used meter's screen is tough to read in bright sunlight and harder to photograph clearly.

Ref level (top line) -18.7 dBmV
From left to right, the bars represent the signal strength of the channels in the current channel plan. Levels near or below the bold horizontal bar (-51.0 dBmV) are unused or are representing noise.

RF Channels
12, 14, 24, 26, 31, 35, 39, 43, 47, 55

All of these channels (except 55 of course), tuned right in with the little Artec on my laptop.

Last edited by ProjectSHO89; 10-31-2009 at 06:26 PM.
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Old 10-31-2009, 10:56 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectSHO89 View Post
Rick,

A little OT for the thread at hand....

This subject just came up on one of the other forums.

I've looked all over AD's website and nowhere do they claim such a beam width for the DB8. So far, I can't find ANY claim of a beam width on their site for the DB8, either now or in the last several years (searched via archive.org). Other than online resellers erroneously claiming such a beam width, I can't find such a reference.

Based on polar plots they sent me a while back, it appears to have a BW of around 20-35 deg depending on frequency.

Just trying to figure out where that 100 degree number came from.
Solid Signal currently lists the DB8 beamwidth as 100 degrees. Others have sited solid signal when quoting beamwidth. Not sure whether the error occured in developing of marketing materials at Antennas Direct or during web page entry at solid signal. AD should really ask SS (and any other retailer that advertises the DB8) to correct their webpage.
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Old 11-01-2009, 04:29 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IDRick View Post
Solid Signal currently lists the DB8 beamwidth as 100 degrees. Others have sited solid signal when quoting beamwidth. Not sure whether the error occured in developing of marketing materials at Antennas Direct or during web page entry at solid signal. AD should really ask SS (and any other retailer that advertises the DB8) to correct their webpage.

So it's not the manufacturer misstating the performance as was suggested..

Is there anything wrong with an educated consumer pointing out to SS (or any other reseller) that they have an error on THEIR website?
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