DTV reception - FCC future power levels

CSH · 09-20-2008, 07:19 PM

Hello all,

New to the board here.

Can anyone advise if the FCC will allow DTV broadcasters to increase DTV output power levels after the Feb 2009 cutover date ? I fear that without a signal level increase I will see no improvement.

Maybe the broadcasters here are simply using a low RF output level currently ? Or maybe they only transmit DTV on specific days ? Can anyone confirm ?

Or, maybe I just need to be patient and wait until February 2009 ?

When I checked the FCC website I found that the local network affiliate stations here are authorized for up to a 1000KW ERP signal output level per FCC licensing. (That's a million watts folks).

So here's my concern: Dismal reception 35 miles north of Seattle when atmospheric changes occur - despite the multiple "fixes" that I've tried.

Good (new) moderate gain multi band (UHF / VHF) directional yagi antenna in place now (oriented south) outside on the roof - that has INCREDIBLE ANALOG (clear) signal at all times. Not so with the few DTV signals that I can capture on odd days.

I understand the channels: 9, 11, and 13 will remain at VHF (digital) after the cutover date so maybe there is some hope yet ?

Have tried both a tower top amp and also an in-line amp with worse signal results on DTV. I'm at a 200 foot elevation with a good view of the horizon into Seattle.

Replaced all feedlines with high quality (solid copper) RG-6U cables that are less that 75 feet in length. Proper broadband (modern / weather tight) compression fittings are used. I used a very conservative amount of GE silicone dielectric protectant grease on the "F" fittings for a weathertight seal. No improvement.

Again, atmospheric conditions seem to really impact the DTV signal here. Cloud cover even on dry days, and rain, both really impact the signals negatively. Some days see an 80% signal capture - and then on the following day there is a broken signal, . . . even when I've made no equipment adjustments in-between the changes in weather. Can't understand it. I've considered sunspots and the current solar cycle too.

Have tried multiple subtle adjustments in the antenna path orientation / direction, but no joy.

Replaced the 300 / 75 ohm matching transformer twice just for good measure. That proved interesting too. Seems that one of the matching transformers acts as a notch filter, and won't pass channel 13. Strange indeed.

Removed the 2-way splitter for the second receiver with no improvement either. It is understood that each port on a splitter can introduce a loss of -3db to -7db.

O.K. you "techy" types, what am I missing here ?

"Signaless" in Seattle.

christyanne · 09-20-2008, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSH

"Signaless" in Seattle.

lol, I love it.

Looks like you've tried a lot of different fixes. Hope someone can help out.

Aaron62 · 09-21-2008, 11:14 PM

Your level of detail is awesome on your post!

Quote:

Can anyone advise if the FCC will allow DTV broadcasters to increase DTV output power levels after the Feb 2009 cutover date ?

This is only a question that your local television stations can answer. You'll want to get in contact with them by email or phone and ask them. I haven't seen a lot of statistics on what the percentage of broadcast stations will up their broadcast power on February 17th.

Quote:

Maybe the broadcasters here are simply using a low RF output level currently ? Or maybe they only transmit DTV on specific days ?

Any broadcast station that is outfitted to broadcast dtv signals should be fully operational every day. I haven't seen anything from the web that's said otherwise.

Quote:

Dismal reception 35 miles north of Seattle when atmospheric changes occur

Ahh! With all the clouds/rain you guys get, that's sure to make dtv reception even tougher.

You've gone far beyond the simple fix/suggestions I've seen offered on the web. I would definitely suggest contacting some of your local television stations. I've seen instances where the station will actually send someone out to help you.

Jay · 09-22-2008, 12:10 AM

Hi CSH,
I've heard that Seattle is somewhat of a trouble spot for DTV reception.

Since Yagi's are sort of a directional antenna, have you tried to aim it in a different direction?

Does your converter box have an on-screen display to indicate signal level. You may want to have a friend or family member come over and watch the tv screen to relay signal information as you move the antenna around.

I found a great blog article (The blogger lives in North Watham County, Seattle) in which the author upgraded to an Terrestrial DB8 Antenna setup: Broadcast DTV and HDTV in North Whatcom County Wally Wonders Why

It was a huge upgrade over his old antenna setup which was just a set of rabbit ears, but he mentions the following about North Seattle options for DTV,

Quote:

Now here is the real reason for this post. I wanted to explore broadcast digital options that are available to me and I couldn’t find them anywhere out on the web. And even those sites with promising information assumed I’d be looking for Seattle stations rather than the much closer Canadian stuff. So this post is sort of a public service post of what I have found so far.

Anyway, here's a forum post I found as well:

HDTVoice.com - High-Definition Television Talk - Seattle area DT signal levels
(DTV in South Everett between Boeing and Downtown Everett)

CSH · 09-22-2008, 05:08 PM

Thanks for the tips / suggestions guys. Neat web sites for related info.

I did contact the engineering dept at KOM0 channel 4 (Seattle ABC affiliate) who advised that their current DTV (channel 4.1) broadcast antenna is positioned on the south face of their tower - effectively creating a signal null for me in here Northern Puget Sound. This condition won't change until after the February cutover date. At that time they will begin sending DTV signal on their main omni antenna.

I'm using four (4) of the DISH TV PAL (TV-40) receivers, which outwardly seem to have some pretty nice user features built in. Yes, they do have a very handy signal strength meter screen selection as part of the system setup section.

I have however discovered some quirks between them. As an experiment, I swapped them from room to room and now I find that each one has a different behavior - regarding which signals they will capture and when - despite rebooting them (have tried both the channel scan process and also removing the AC power). Seems they have a learning program as part of their internal programming that sometimes requires days to purge and relearn.

IN ONE ROOM THE RECEIVER WOULD CONTINUALLY FIND NEW CHANNELS, . . . but no so if I moved that same receiver into another room. Until I discovered this quirk it just about drove me nuts. I even checked the AC power here to see if there was any cause for concern. (121.2 V). Here's the latest mystery. The room farthest from my antenna, 75 feet away, will receive a single DTV station that no other room will.

Did find a couple of good related web sites to look at which will assist you determining where your local DTV stations are physically located so that you can aim your antenna properly. Cut and paste these into your browser:

Latitude/Longitude Position Finder

Broadcast Television Station Search

TV Fool - TV Signal Locater

NOTE: Make certain that you enter the "-" negative symbol just ahead of your longitude figure or the process will not complete.

I'd like to try the Terrestrial DB8 Antenna to see what kind of performance it might offer me, but will have to wait until payday - or take a second job. Kinda spendy. They are a departure from the directional yagi style - and appear to have a bigger wind load being flat panel mesh multi-bow tie design. The manufacturer claims they weigh in at 10 lbs !

The real burn is that I have an incredible analog signal now and can only hope that the DTV (digital) signal will eventually equal or exceed that. Right now that is obviously not the case for me. I'm a bit apprehensive about this process because in the Seattle area, on average, we have approximately 226 days of clouds or rain per year.

I can't imagine the general population would ever find the patience (or household budget) to deal with such technical requirements, . . . the constant trial and error equipment adjustments, . . . and the need to research and experiment with various components to achieve a reasonable DTV signal in their homes.

Let's hope this entire DTV cutover process doesn't evolve into another Congressional Bail Out.

Taki · 09-25-2008, 08:22 PM

We are having trouble where we live as well. Its really a step back in technology from my perspective. At least I got an uninterrupted signal with analog, now one little cloud in the sky and my picture freezes and the sound skips. what a rip off.

Byte24 · 09-26-2008, 11:02 PM

This sounds more like a promotional thread than anything for CSH...

Taki · 09-28-2008, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byte24

This sounds more like a promotional thread than anything for CSH...

Not seeing that dude. what I see is someone asking a serious question to a rather technical problem after someone went to extreme lengths to solve the problem themselves.

CSH · 10-08-2008, 01:40 PM

UPDATE: Still hard at it here folks, . . . will now try cascading duplicate identical antennas together (ONE ABOVE THE OTHER WITH A PHASING CABLE) and introduce the antenna pre-amp at the antenna feed to see if I can improve the signal capture.

In the mean time, take a peak at this site. Its worth a good laugh:

Hulu - Talkshow with Spike Feresten: Cable PSA

Best,

CSH

Taki · 10-09-2008, 04:35 AM

The thing is you should not have to be going to all this time and trouble to get a simple broadcast reception. If we are going to adopt the digital broadcasting system it should be in place for everyone who is currently getting analog service or eventually someone is going to sue for denial of service. I for one support them in their efforts as I strongly suspect that the bandwidth opened by the adoption of DTV has already been auctioned off behind the scenes to someone who will make a ton of money off of it at the expense of broadcast TV viewers.


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