DTV USA Forum                

Go Back DTV USA Forum > DTV | HDTV > DTV | HDTV Reception and Antenna Discussion




Welcome to DTVUSAForum.com.

Your current user status is: Guest.
Please feel free to continue browsing our site as a guest. To gain full access and begin posting, you'll need to register for a free account. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free.

Why join DTV USA Forum?

Enjoy member benefits such as:
Less advertising. Ask questions. Share advice. Discuss HDTV, Cable TV, Satellite TV, Home Theater and many other topics. Join today by clicking here.



* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-20-2009, 12:15 PM   #1 (permalink)
DTVUSA Rookie

No Avatar
 



Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
protonnn is on the path to becoming an esteemed DTVUSAForum member
Points: 60, Level: 1 Points: 60, Level: 1 Points: 60, Level: 1
Activity: 1% Activity: 1% Activity: 1%
Default Reception sensitivity on HDTVs

I live in a fringe area for antenna reception of TV, and am having trouble finding a TV with a better ability to handle a weak signal. So far, I get more digital stations with an old TV and a converter box than with a new HDTV. I don't need advice on antennas or amplifiers. I need to know if TV brands vary among themselves and from other brands in their ability to handle a weak antenna signal. If so, what spec do I look for? Sony emailed me to phone their number, and when I did, the digital TV woman did not even know what a fringe area was! Some expert!
View protonnn's Photo Album protonnn is offline  
Old 06-20-2009, 01:34 PM   #2 (permalink)
Moderator
 
Don_M's Avatar
 





Thanked 253 Times in 161 Posts
Don_M has much to be proud ofDon_M has much to be proud ofDon_M has much to be proud ofDon_M has much to be proud ofDon_M has much to be proud ofDon_M has much to be proud ofDon_M has much to be proud ofDon_M has much to be proud ofDon_M has much to be proud ofDon_M has much to be proud ofDon_M has much to be proud of
Points: 2,710, Level: 31 Points: 2,710, Level: 31 Points: 2,710, Level: 31
Activity: 10% Activity: 10% Activity: 10%
Default

Now, that's what I call a loaded question! It's also a very good one. Sadly, there's no good answer because the makers of HDTVs and converter boxes don't release technical specs. It's not because they have something to hide; part of the reason is that, unlike with the analog tuners of earlier days, every maker uses different software, making side-by-side comparisons at least partially irrelevant. There hasn't been any independent testing recently that anyone is aware of. The FCC did publish side-by-side sensitivity comparisons about four years ago, but advances in tuner/software design since then have rendered those conclusions moot. Besides, the agency didn't identify which maker was behind HD receiver "A," HDTV "B" or converter box "C," and it didn't compare products across the categories, either.

You're certainly not alone in observing a notable sensitivity difference. Many, many online posters have made the same comment. I noticed the difference firsthand while installing CECBs last year for a few older neighbors. Even though every one of them has set-top rabbit ears, their reception is nearly as reliable as what I get with my HDTV, and I have separate, and fairly large, VHF and UHF antennas in the attic.

I can only speculate, but I believe the difference has to do with the target buyers of each kind of tuner. HDTV makers know that roughly 85 percent of customers intend to connect their new sets to cable or satellite, because that's the proportion of households that pay for TV service. TVs connected to strong signal sources, such as those provided by the subscription services, don't need tuners that are all that sensitive, do they?

On the other hand, 100 percent of the converter boxes were destined to be fed by antennas, and their makers had to assume that a good number of these boxes would be hooked up to rabbit ears. To work well, a converter box on rabbit ears needs a tuner that is both highly sensitive and highly resistant to multipath interference.

The best you can do is to choose your new HDTV from among brands known for quality products, such as Sony, Toshiba, Panasonic, Samsung, etc.
View Don_M's Photo Album Don_M is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Don_M For This Useful Post:
Jay (06-22-2009), protonnn (06-20-2009)
Old 06-20-2009, 03:12 PM   #3 (permalink)
Super Moderator
 
Piggie's Avatar
 





Thanked 371 Times in 269 Posts
Piggie has much to be proud ofPiggie has much to be proud ofPiggie has much to be proud ofPiggie has much to be proud ofPiggie has much to be proud ofPiggie has much to be proud ofPiggie has much to be proud ofPiggie has much to be proud ofPiggie has much to be proud ofPiggie has much to be proud ofPiggie has much to be proud of
Points: 8,056, Level: 60 Points: 8,056, Level: 60 Points: 8,056, Level: 60
Activity: 4% Activity: 4% Activity: 4%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_M View Post
...........TVs connected to strong signal sources, such as those provided by the subscription services, don't need tuners that are all that sensitive, do they?

On the other hand, 100 percent of the converter boxes were destined to be fed by antennas, and their makers had to assume that a good number of these boxes would be hooked up to rabbit ears. To work well, a converter box on rabbit ears needs a tuner that is both highly sensitive and highly resistant to multipath interference.

The best you can do is to choose your new HDTV from among brands known for quality products, such as Sony, Toshiba, Panasonic, Samsung, etc.
Don what is so odd I have an Insignia (early one before APT), DTVPal Plus, and older Toshiba TV and a Ölevia I bought on a Thanksgiving day sale at K-Mart 18 months ago. The Ölevia hands down wins on weak signal, mulitpath, co-channel. I bought it simply on price before I knew as much as I know now about differences in TVs.

My 25 year old analog RCA has failed on the weekend. I researched for the best inexpensive 32 inch LCD to replace it. The Ölevia model I bought had good reviews and was on sale at Best Buy for $600. I was hedging around not wanting to spend that much when my wife saw the same TV in a flyer someone left on a table at the restaurant. So I got up at 5 am and headed down to get in line. I plain got lucky.

I really wish there was a comparison but like you I doubt there is even seen enough of a demand for OTA reception for someone to do it.
View Piggie's Photo Album Piggie is offline  
Old 06-20-2009, 08:56 PM   #4 (permalink)
DTVUSA Rookie

No Avatar
 



Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
protonnn is on the path to becoming an esteemed DTVUSAForum member
Points: 60, Level: 1 Points: 60, Level: 1 Points: 60, Level: 1
Activity: 1% Activity: 1% Activity: 1%
Default

Thanks for the information, although I hate to have the unpleasant results of my own attempts to find such information confirmed. There are millions of antenna users, so I would think it would be worth a few extra bucks to the Sonys of the world to build a better tuner on at least a few models.
View protonnn's Photo Album protonnn is offline  
Old 06-20-2009, 10:21 PM   #5 (permalink)
DTVUSA Member
 
Aaron62's Avatar
 





Thanked 110 Times in 98 Posts
Aaron62 is a splendid one to beholdAaron62 is a splendid one to beholdAaron62 is a splendid one to beholdAaron62 is a splendid one to beholdAaron62 is a splendid one to beholdAaron62 is a splendid one to behold
Points: 9,260, Level: 64 Points: 9,260, Level: 64 Points: 9,260, Level: 64
Activity: 26% Activity: 26% Activity: 26%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by protonnn View Post
Thanks for the information, although I hate to have the unpleasant results of my own attempts to find such information confirmed. There are millions of antenna users, so I would think it would be worth a few extra bucks to the Sonys of the world to build a better tuner on at least a few models.
I've often wondered this myself. How much money could TV manufactures actually be saving with putting in a cheaper tuner chip?

I've also wondered if the newer HDTVs are being built with better chips than one's built 2 years ago, just like how the converter boxes a year ago had weaker chips, and since then, some models now have a revision batch, produced with better dtv signal receiving digital tuners.
View Aaron62's Photo Album Aaron62 is offline  
Old 06-21-2009, 05:15 AM   #6 (permalink)
Super Moderator
 
Piggie's Avatar
 





Thanked 371 Times in 269 Posts
Piggie has much to be proud ofPiggie has much to be proud ofPiggie has much to be proud ofPiggie has much to be proud ofPiggie has much to be proud ofPiggie has much to be proud ofPiggie has much to be proud ofPiggie has much to be proud ofPiggie has much to be proud ofPiggie has much to be proud ofPiggie has much to be proud of
Points: 8,056, Level: 60 Points: 8,056, Level: 60 Points: 8,056, Level: 60
Activity: 4% Activity: 4% Activity: 4%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron62 View Post
I've often wondered this myself. How much money could TV manufactures actually be saving with putting in a cheaper tuner chip?

I've also wondered if the newer HDTVs are being built with better chips than one's built 2 years ago, just like how the converter boxes a year ago had weaker chips, and since then, some models now have a revision batch, produced with better dtv signal receiving digital tuners.
That is what I find so odd about my chineese, el cheapo, off brand Ölevia.
I was not bragging above taking about it, I find it odd it's my best tuner.

I bought it Thanksgiving 2007 on sale. In reviews I found it was on sale last time in big box stores for Christmas 2006. I then could determine that it was first released in Summer of 2006 about. So figure from that it was at newest early 2006 technology.

And it's my best tuner????????????????????

It will beat my CECB boxes including an Insignia which is the DXers choice.

That blows out some of the chip information, unless I don't know that the newest chip design was as far back as early 2006?????

I have no other info and probably can't find much unless someone that knows the generations of chips chimes in.

Again I am guessing but I think most of the CECBs were designed in early or mid 2007?


========

Aside:

I remember looking for any converter for a friend in late 2007 and all we could find were real HD outputs and about $200 and only a couple of models.

I remember thinking before I understood how much good is a $40 coupon going to be on a $200 box. I didn't realize a special generation would be coming out.

I remember thinking at the time also that time was running out for people and what would they do? (didn't realize the CECBs were going to be made at that point).

Looking back if most stations where on the air by 2003, why did CECBs come out in 2008? And why did they wait until 2007 to mandate ATSC tuners? I still think that was one of the biggest mistakes of the transition.
View Piggie's Photo Album Piggie is offline  
Old 06-21-2009, 06:38 AM   #7 (permalink)
DTVUSA Member
 
bicker's Avatar
 



Thanked 144 Times in 117 Posts
bicker has much to be proud ofbicker has much to be proud ofbicker has much to be proud ofbicker has much to be proud ofbicker has much to be proud ofbicker has much to be proud ofbicker has much to be proud ofbicker has much to be proud ofbicker has much to be proud ofbicker has much to be proud of
Points: 4,588, Level: 43 Points: 4,588, Level: 43 Points: 4,588, Level: 43
Activity: 13% Activity: 13% Activity: 13%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron62 View Post
I've often wondered this myself. How much money could TV manufactures actually be saving with putting in a cheaper tuner chip?
Cost-reduced chips definitely have a major impact. I know that the original HD TiVo, the TiVo Series 3, sold for $800 when it came out in 2006, and only dipped below $500 when it finally was being cleared out of inventories. By comparison, the follow-on TiVo HD, which was in most ways simply a cost-reduced version of the TiVo S3, started at $400 and have come down to $250. The TiVo S3 was priced based on cost, because it was so costly. As a result, it sold for a price higher than most reasonable people would think was fair. The TiVo HD is selling roughly at cost, and with the requirement for purchasing service for the device, presumable selling at a profit, getting TiVo closer to pricing based on value, which is better for TiVo.
View bicker's Photo Album bicker is offline  
Old 06-21-2009, 10:48 AM   #8 (permalink)
DTVUSA Member
 
Aaron62's Avatar
 





Thanked 110 Times in 98 Posts
Aaron62 is a splendid one to beholdAaron62 is a splendid one to beholdAaron62 is a splendid one to beholdAaron62 is a splendid one to beholdAaron62 is a splendid one to beholdAaron62 is a splendid one to behold
Points: 9,260, Level: 64 Points: 9,260, Level: 64 Points: 9,260, Level: 64
Activity: 26% Activity: 26% Activity: 26%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piggie View Post
That is what I find so odd about my chineese, el cheapo, off brand Ölevia.
I was not bragging above taking about it, I find it odd it's my best tuner.

I bought it Thanksgiving 2007 on sale. In reviews I found it was on sale last time in big box stores for Christmas 2006. I then could determine that it was first released in Summer of 2006 about. So figure from that it was at newest early 2006 technology.

And it's my best tuner????????????????????

It will beat my CECB boxes including an Insignia which is the DXers choice.

That blows out some of the chip information, unless I don't know that the newest chip design was as far back as early 2006?????

I have no other info and probably can't find much unless someone that knows the generations of chips chimes in.

Again I am guessing but I think most of the CECBs were designed in early or mid 2007?


========

Aside:

I remember looking for any converter for a friend in late 2007 and all we could find were real HD outputs and about $200 and only a couple of models.

I remember thinking before I understood how much good is a $40 coupon going to be on a $200 box. I didn't realize a special generation would be coming out.

I remember thinking at the time also that time was running out for people and what would they do? (didn't realize the CECBs were going to be made at that point).

Looking back if most stations where on the air by 2003, why did CECBs come out in 2008? And why did they wait until 2007 to mandate ATSC tuners? I still think that was one of the biggest mistakes of the transition.
Alright Piggie, you're going to have to tell me how you did the O in Ölevia? The only way I could replicate it was by copying and pasting it here in the text box.

I definitely find it strange that some of the bigger and supposedly better TVs have subpar tuners. I haven't had any experience with Ölevia, but a friend of mine bought 2 of them last Summer. His ATSC tuners work great, but one of the TVs went back within 3 months, which he took back to Costco and got a replacement one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker View Post
Cost-reduced chips definitely have a major impact. I know that the original HD TiVo, the TiVo Series 3, sold for $800 when it came out in 2006, and only dipped below $500 when it finally was being cleared out of inventories. By comparison, the follow-on TiVo HD, which was in most ways simply a cost-reduced version of the TiVo S3, started at $400 and have come down to $250. The TiVo S3 was priced based on cost, because it was so costly. As a result, it sold for a price higher than most reasonable people would think was fair. The TiVo HD is selling roughly at cost, and with the requirement for purchasing service for the device, presumable selling at a profit, getting TiVo closer to pricing based on value, which is better for TiVo.
I can see it being more of an issue especially with the Tivo units because they're built with two tuners right? Effectively doubling the difference in cost by having the extra tuner.
View Aaron62's Photo Album Aaron62 is offline  
Old 06-21-2009, 11:09 AM   #9 (permalink)
Moderator
 
Don_M's Avatar
 





Thanked 253 Times in 161 Posts
Don_M has much to be proud ofDon_M has much to be proud ofDon_M has much to be proud ofDon_M has much to be proud ofDon_M has much to be proud ofDon_M has much to be proud ofDon_M has much to be proud ofDon_M has much to be proud ofDon_M has much to be proud ofDon_M has much to be proud ofDon_M has much to be proud of
Points: 2,710, Level: 31 Points: 2,710, Level: 31 Points: 2,710, Level: 31
Activity: 10% Activity: 10% Activity: 10%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron62 View Post
I've often wondered this myself. How much money could TV manufactures actually be saving with putting in a cheaper tuner chip?
Helps to look at it from the manufacturer's standpoint: If you can save 50 cents a unit by using chip "B" instead of "A" and you sell 2 million units a year, that's a million bucks that drops straight to the bottom line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piggie View Post
Don what is so odd I have an Insignia (early one before APT), DTVPal Plus, and older Toshiba TV and a Ölevia I bought on a Thanksgiving day sale at K-Mart 18 months ago. The Ölevia hands down wins on weak signal, mulitpath, co-channel. I bought it simply on price before I knew as much as I know now about differences in TVs.
Ölevias got a good reputation very, very quickly, and this is probably why. This is the first time I've read about the reverse being true, but there are always exceptions to every rule! I'll have to keep them in mind for when we buy our next panel.
View Don_M's Photo Album Don_M is offline  
Old 06-21-2009, 01:21 PM   #10 (permalink)
DTVUSA Member
 
bicker's Avatar
 



Thanked 144 Times in 117 Posts
bicker has much to be proud ofbicker has much to be proud ofbicker has much to be proud ofbicker has much to be proud ofbicker has much to be proud ofbicker has much to be proud ofbicker has much to be proud ofbicker has much to be proud ofbicker has much to be proud ofbicker has much to be proud of
Points: 4,588, Level: 43 Points: 4,588, Level: 43 Points: 4,588, Level: 43
Activity: 13% Activity: 13% Activity: 13%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron62 View Post
I can see it being more of an issue especially with the Tivo units because they're built with two tuners right? Effectively doubling the difference in cost by having the extra tuner.
TiVos have six tuners: Two ATSC tuners, two QAM tuners, and two NTSC tuners, in two stacks of three. Yes, loads of opportunities for economies of scale to do their magic there.
View bicker's Photo Album bicker is offline  

Tags
hdtvs, reception, sensitivity



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Common problems with DTV converters, reception, and solutions DTVuser2009 Converter Boxes and ATSC Tuners 13 08-25-2009 01:48 PM
OTA DTV reception - Silverton (Oregon) Hills grapedog DTV | HDTV Reception and Antenna Discussion 9 06-30-2009 12:56 PM
Comparison of DTV converters reception ability Sparks DTV | HDTV Reception and Antenna Discussion 17 06-19-2009 03:32 PM
FCC News Release: DTV Reception Problems? Try "Double Rescanning: HTNut DTV News and Articles 4 06-19-2009 03:10 AM
Survey Says: DTV Reception better than analog? Say what? Aaron62 DTV | HDTV Chat 37 05-17-2009 10:15 AM

» Recent Topics
American Chopper is canceled
1 Replies, 53 Views
Favorite Sesame Street Character
3 Replies, 151 Views
People really watch this?
20 Replies, 553 Views
Do you think it's rigged?
6 Replies, 161 Views
Family Guy or The Simpsons?
39 Replies, 1,362 Views
» Marketplace: Auctions Ending Soon
Memorex Digital Converter Box
Today 02:00 AM
1 Views
» Google Links
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.1.0

All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0
© 2008, 2009

DTVUSAForum.com is a fan run website and is not affiliated with ABC | CBS | FOX | HBO | NBC or any other television corporation.