Reasons for skepticism regarding the Green "Dishtenna"

- Every major U.S. antenna manufacturer has published gain, beam width, and front to back ratios at minimum -- but not the dishtenna.

- The dishtenna design is supposedly patented, but there is no patent number on the dtvgreendish site. Failing to publish a patent number severely limits liability if the patent is infringed.
[Note to Dan Rivera: Please consider this a formal request for the patent number on your design]

- If we could see tvfool reports from several dishtenna users, along with a list of stations reliably received, that would provide some basis for comparison. This information is easily generated and shared on the internet. We keep asking for such reports, but none have been forthcoming.

- Posting fake rave reviews on the internet is a common technique used by disreputable companies. The HT Guys (podcast #540 at HDTV and Home Theater Podcast - Podcasts ) have verified that someone associated with Green Dish has been, for want of a better word, "gaming the system" by posting fake positive reviews.

- Every positive review posted thus far fails to pass one simple test for authenticity. That doesn't mean the dozen or so reviews are all bogus, but some are certainly fake and all are suspect.

- The Green Dish site claims a 75 to 100 mile range for the dishtenna, and further answers the question "Q. Will my signal get zapped? A. Never." This claim would appear to violate the laws of physics based on the curvature of the earth.

- Dan Rivera has turned down an offer from this poster to pit the Green "Dishtenna" versus my Channel Master 4221HD in an old fashioned antenna shootout. This would mean free testing and advertising for his product for the price of shipping his product to me. I offered to return the product, which is made from recycled materials, in good condition at my expense.

- The Green dish site also claims "thanks to inventor Dan Rivera from Homestead, Florida, all TV antennas are now considered outdated and a thing of the past." On the contrary, reputable antenna forums on the internet continue to recommend conventional TV antennas. The lack of any objective data on the dishtenna has been discussed on at least one of these sites.

Caveat emptor!

:Addendum:

After turning down my original offer to do a "shootout" pitting the Dishtenna versus my 4221HD, and after learning I was planning to post these "Reasons for skepticism," CEO Dan Rivera sent me the following counter-proposal:

Hi [real name], I think that's a great idea. We welcome you to bring your antenna to Homestead Florida. We are approximately 54 miles south of the Pembroke Pines Miami Transmitter farm, and 90 miles from the West Palm Beach Farm. We get channels from both areas at 28 - 30 degrees NE. 57-80 channels through out the Homestead area. You give us the date and times, and I'll have my video production crew document the comparisons. If you have other antennas, bring them too and we can put the results in future use in our upcoming info-mercials.

Thanks for your feed back.

Dan Rivera /CEO
Sales
DTV Green Dish "kick cable to the curb"

I replied with the following email:

I note that you turned down my original proposal and made a counter offer for me to come to Florida. Unfortunately, health issues would make it extremely difficult for me to make the trip. There are many people more qualified than me who could make the trip and do a more thorough, scientific comparison. Also, in the interest of objectivity, I'd be concerned about giving the Dishtenna any "home field advantage."

However, I will include your counter offer in my post to dtvusaforum. Perhaps one of the experts there would like to take you up on it.

Sincerely,
"Rickideemus"

I have informed Mr. Rivera that he is free to respond further, either via email to me, which I will c.c. to this forum, or directly as a guest poster here.

"Born to make trouble"
Rick

Not to mention the green dish requires power. Presumably for an inbuilt preamp, in which case any direct greendish to antenna comparison is effectively meaningless without its own aftermarket preamp.

Parabolic antennas (dishes) are not new and tiny ones are designed to receive a narrow range of signal frequencies from only one direction and by design, all sized dishes reject signals from every other direction. Look at a flashlight (torch to the Brits) and they use a similar parabola to concentrate light produced by a small bulb in only one direction. The better the design of the flashlight (parabolic reflector) the more focussed the light beam will be. Reverse the concept for receiving RF TV signals.

My free OTA TV signals arrive here from all around the compass so (even if the Green Thing works at all) per the Modern Dictionary of Electronics definition of a parabolic antenna, any parabolic (dish) antenna would be worthless to me for OTA reception including either Channel Master parabolic dish antennas from the 1960s and 70s. Channel Master 4251 Tribute Page

I note there is no mention in the Green ads nor their posts here or elsewhere about having to combine 2, 3, 4 or 5 Green Things nor mention about anyone mounting one using an antenna rotator to be able to receive channels from more than one direction.

Since we have no facts it appears they are simply promoting an omni-directional antenna.

If it works, it will be a first and I will promote it but I need proof before I support and promote anything. Not even one comparison has been offered so far...............

Fact: RG-6 has less signal loss than RG-59, thus I prefer RG-6 for new installations, but it does not mean the RG-59 in a homes' walls is "bad".

It means a comparison was done and one type of Coaxial cable has been proven to be superior to another.

Where are ANY comparison reports proving the Green Thing is superior to any other antenna/s?

Jim

Originally Posted by Fringe Reception

Where are ANY comparison reports proving the Green Thing is superior to any other antenna/s?

Hear, hear! Well said, Jim.

Ok [real name], But let them know we won't be testing at 11.5 miles from the tv towers through a window, Our tests will be performed from 60+ miles. In fact you gave us such a great idea that we decided we will sponsor the first official annual antenna shoot out in Florida, and invite all antenna companies and homebrewers to come and compare their wares against the GreenDish at 70+ miles.

It seems to me you are setting up a situation where the Dishtenna being tested will remain under your control. Even with my limited knowledge of antenna theory, I can think of a half dozen ways you might artificially enhance the performance of your antenna under these conditions. To get a valid comparison, it's essential your antenna be pointed, positioned and controlled at all times by the third party objective tester, just as the other antenna should be.

I instructed our Marketing and PR team to put it together. I'll send you an email with the dates and place. Since we have clients in key Largo Florida, That's the farthest we have gone so far and they are 60+ miles south from the Transmitter farm in Broward County and they still get from 47 to 57 channels with our Dish-Tenna.
Check out how the HTGUYs review of the Dish-Tenna ,even though Antennaweb-weaver and TVfoo-lish said that" due to the terrain and distance from the broadcasting towers no signal can be received in your location"

The site doesn't say that, exactly, and the difference is significant. It's customary to use exact quotes when you enclose a statement in quotation marks. The exact quote is:
"Due to factors such as terrain and distance to broadcasting towers, signal strength calculations have predicted no television stations may be reliably received at this location." [emphasis added]

LOL they got 125 channels plus TV signals from 90 + miles away.

That's interesting, because that "125 channels" number appears nowhere in their review, nor in their rejoinder the following week. It does appear on your web site, however, where you claim: "Up to 125 channels depending on market." ASTOUNDING they got the exact number of channels you claim as the maximum.

Hope to see you there.

Danny

Sales
DTV Green Dish "kick cable to the curb"

I can't continue to relay all your messages to the dtvusaforum. I suggest you register and post at dtvusaforum as "Dan Rivera" or "Danny Rivera." I believe these emails signed "Danny" may not be from the same individual who signs "Dan Rivera" -- inventor and CEO at the Green Dish company.

Good luck with your shootout in Florida!

Sincerely,
"Rickideemus"

This antenna is eerily reminescent of the cheap Chinese junk antennas advertised everywhere.

Over hyped performance claims backed only with anecdotal evidence.

Just visually, the claims seem to defy physics - reception from VHF low to SHF (whatever that is) on a relatively small antenna with the apparent active elements outside the focal point of the solid reflector (Is that an old Dish 500 reflector?).

$299 - OUTRAGEOUS!

Testing over the world has shown you need as c-band sized dish (a BUD) before UHF gain reaches a level thats beyond a very good yagi or bowtie. All other UHF parabolics back this up (eg CM4251 and some of still available parabolics for MATV systems), the only difference being they are not solid dishes (to reduce wind loading) and therefore lose a little gain. Add a preamp to that and see how you go ;-) . All parabolics are also very highly directional.

To get high vhf gains off a parabolic you would probably need a small radar astronomy observatory.

I bought the dishtenna, and it was a bust. I couldnt get any channels, i called him and told him want the deal was and he kept telling me some things to do and i could never get it to work right. It claims vhf uhf and even fm well that a joke as i hooked my fm radio to it and got nothin as far as range i used a clothes hanger and got more than this antenna no joke.

Originally Posted by curt

I bought the dishtenna, and it was a bust. I couldnt get any channels, i called him and told him want the deal was and he kept telling me some things to do and i could never get it to work right. It claims vhf uhf and even fm well that a joke as i hooked my fm radio to it and got nothin as far as range i used a clothes hanger and got more than this antenna no joke.

Curt,

Apparantly you installed it yourself, is that correct?

Did it have 4 lobes, like the picture on the green dish site? Is the parabolic reflector smooth, or are there more reflectors or bumps on the dish? It would be great if you could take a picture and post it here on the forum!

Do you have a signal meter in your TV? What did it say on the various channels? Or did you never get any channels at all??

Originally Posted by Sherlock Holmes

Data, data, data. I cannot make bricks without clay.

TIA,
Rick

Originally Posted by curt

I bought the dishtenna, and it was a bust. I couldnt get any channels, i called him and told him want the deal was and he kept telling me some things to do and i could never get it to work right. It claims vhf uhf and even fm well that a joke as i hooked my fm radio to it and got nothin as far as range i used a clothes hanger and got more than this antenna no joke.

Curt,

Thanks for your reception report but it may not be the fault of the Green Thing. Please go to TV Fool and post the resulting URL from your free antenna survey here, for us to study. With that information, we may be able to help you get reception using a 'contemporary' antenna. Be sure to include the actual height above ground level where you mounted the Dish. Thanks!

Jim

Originally Posted by curt

i used a clothes hanger and got more than this antenna no joke.

Well, it's been over a week and no response from curt. WHY am I not surprised? There's a cosmic force at work thwarting all efforts to obtain objective data on this invention! There was another negative review from poster "riped off." Once again, no follow up. There was a neutral post from pegsat, who stated her intention to install and test the frisbies. pegsat DISAPPEARED in a puff of smoke. There was an extremely positive review from the HT Guys. Attempts to squeeze even one drop of solid data from them were met with a deafening silence. Appeals made directly to Dan Rivera, inventor and CEO of the DTV Green Dish Company, have also been rebuffed.

We have no choice but to make one last desperate appeal to the HT Guys. I know we've been a little rough on the Dishtenna here, but I, personally, still believe there's a better than 50/50 chance SOMEthing underlies this invention. I make little jokes ("frisbie," etc.) because they deserve it for withholding all objective data, including the very basic data traditionally required from all antenna makers. But I believe in the Green Dish because of you, Ara, and you, Braden. You are both engineers with impressive credentials and good family backgrounds. The results you describe sound impressive, and you provide two more data points -- two listeners who have invested in the dish -- who are also happy.

But this is all subjective data. As men of Science, you surely know the difference. Science requires objective data -- results that can be verified or refuted by future tests -- in order to progress. And Science is a community project. It's every man's responsibility to provide data, when it's easily obtained. Without assistance from every man, woman and child, knowledge cannot progress, and the only direction for civilization is then BACKWARDS, straight to the Dark Ages.

And so we make one more plea. I am renewing my request that you both provide links to your tvfool reports. You say you've done the reports. The links are provided near the top of the report, clearly marked. Please copy them, and send them to me via email, or post them here in this forum or on your web site. This does not reveal enough information to disclose your addresses. In fact, there's probably more revealing information on your web site.

Also essential is a complete list of all the stations you've received reliably over the last few weeks. You could avoid the need to type out every station by writing, for example, "we reliably get every red station in the tvfool report except WXYZ," or whatever. But we would like the list to be as complete as possible.

It also seems certain that you both have signal meters in one or more of the receivers connected to the Dishtennas. Please tell us as much as you can about these readings. Do all received stations show identical signal level? If not, tell us which stations show a high quality signal, and which show a lower quality.

Finally, I'm curious to know why no pictures of the installation were included in your review. You provided several pictures of the Mohu Leaf, back when you reviewed that antenna, as well as pictures of your signal meter(s). Nobody is asking you to climb up on the roof, but you surely must have access to some telephoto lenses. We'd be grateful if you would kindly upload some pictures of your installation, either here, on your site, or as files attached to an email.

Similarly, any and all response to this post may be made here, on your site, or via email.

Thanks in advance for your timely response,
"Rickideemus"

[An email, with a link to this post, is being sent to the HT Guys.]

Originally Posted by nbound-au

Not to mention the green dish requires power. Presumably for an inbuilt preamp, in which case any direct greendish to antenna comparison is effectively meaningless without its own aftermarket preamp.

nbound-au, not necessarily.

If the Green Thing is so "deaf" that it requires an amplifier, it is quite possible many conventional antennas without any amplification might be equal or better.

It is also possible that a coat hanger with a similar amplifier might equal or beat it, if it was installed outdoors at the same location and same height above ground level.

Who knows, since they refuse to provide any real information to us or to anyone. "It's the best" works for me as well as "Hope, Change" worked and that has certainly been a disaster.

Jim


VERSUS

Originally Posted by Fringe Reception

Not necessarily.

If the Green Thing is so "deaf" that it requires an amplifier, it is quite possible many conventional antennas without any amplification might be equal or better. Its possible a set of rabbit ears or a coat hanger might equal or beat it.

Jim

Oh I agree , I was mainly refering to the HTGuys comparison between dish and antenna. If the dish did beat an antenna, its meaningless unless its a level playing field.

nbound-au,

To me, an even playing field isn't side-by-side testing. Its mounting one antenna after another on the same mast at the same height looking at the same channels and comparing reception quality. The Green Thing people have not shared any testing like this.

Aimed at three LOS channels at 17, 20 and 21 miles (I can see the towers) when I compared my 16-Bay Hoverman versus a 4-Bay CM-4221 (and others) the 4221 won. A non-intuative result but imperically discovered. A coat hanger works for those three channels, as well.

So where are any definitive comparison test results regarding the Green Thing? Where are any photos of their "hundreds of installations"? They have been offered a terrific venue (here) that would promote their "antenna" FREE if and only if they would provide any real life data and until they do I cannot believe anything they say.

Jim

Originally Posted by Fringe Reception

It is also possible that a coat hanger with a similar amplifier might equal or beat it, if it was installed outdoors at the same location and same height above ground level.

That would be pretty hard to believe, given the HT Guys' report. Let's wait a few days, and give then a chance to respond.

Or in the inimitable words of Archie Bunker: "Stifle yourself, Edith!"

BTW, emails have been sent to the HT Guys linking to this thread.

Originally Posted by Fringe Reception

nbound-au,

To me, an even playing field isn't side-by-side testing. Its mounting one antenna after another on the same mast at the same height looking at the same channels and comparing reception quality. The Green Thing people have not shared any testing like this.

And again I definately agree, I just didnt put it into so many words.

Enter "Honest Charlie" on a TV commercial trying to sell a car to you. It "has the best mileage of any car that has ever been built" but Charlie refuses to tell you if it has a trunk, a back seat or even a passenger seat ... would you spend your hard earned money on that car?

Jim

PS somehow this post was duplicated so I deleted the one above.

Originally Posted by Fringe Reception

Enter "Honest Charlie" on a TV commercial trying to sell a car to you. It "has the best mileage of any car that has ever been built" but Charlie refuses to tell you if it has a trunk, a back seat or even a passenger seat ... would you spend your hard earned money on that car?

[Ronald Reagan voice:] "There he goes again." Man, who would ever want to BUY the green thing?? I want to do something much tougher -- I want to UNDERSTAND it.

Admit it. You honestly don't WANT it to work, do you?? That's just weird.

R.

With an understanding of aerial theory, it cant work, unless they has found a new technique that somehow everyone else has missed for 100+ years, including the worlds best minds. I dont like the chances of that. Unfortunately, aerials dont work on the hopes and dreams of their owners

Sorry i havent logged on in a while, yea there is an in line amp on the dishtenna. Not sure how many dbs gain it has or want ever, i get pretty good receiption with my channelmaster 3020. I was just seein if it would out perforum what i had and it didnt. I use coat hangers as an fm antenna as im a hugh fan of fm dxing, and it works pretty well for that, i can even get some vhf channels with that setup in which the dishtenna was not able to pick, if under the right condtions the dishtenna may pick up but its not for rural and out lieing areas as here in rural south georgia