question re: 1950s rooftop antenna

Originally Posted by terry

I do the trial-and-error babystep approach, so please know your suggestions are just as helpful to me as those of the more experienced posters (aka "the 30 year guys"!).

See, that's why I think I can still make a contribution here. The pros don't seem to register with your concern about going up on the roof. Why? Because they've gone up on THOUSANDS of roofs combined.

My dad installed antennas for a couple years before I was born. He fell once, and had problems with his back for the next twenty years. Art Bell, (famous radio personality with a huge antenna farm) fell from a pole when he was a kid. He still has terrible back problems. The risk is worse for you and your husband because it's not your regular line of work, and because of the power lines.

Originally Posted by terry

I'm sure he's going to want to try the "basement" approach first, then move on to your suggestions.

OF COURSE! You could move the TV down to the basement just for a test. You might have to get a pro eventually, but this is going to cost essentially nothing. A professional installation in the New York area, I can't even guess... probably $300 minimum?

Originally Posted by terry

I promise, I won't pester you guys too much longer.

Pester at will. They like it. Cable companies put a lot of them out of work, and this is their revenge.

Rick

I'm curious about what would come in with the TV hooked to the old wiring (with a 300 to 75 ohm balun). Not because that would be the best set up, but because I'm curious how well the old wiring has survived the years.

The pros don't seem to register with your concern about going up on the roof. Why? Because they've gone up on THOUSANDS of roofs combined.

I understand those concerns. I install antennas, and I hate heights. I hate steep roofs. And falling.

But, I hate the cable company even more.

Here's an idea: Gather together your cable bills and a calculator and figure out how much another 10 years of cable will cost. Adjust for inflation. I suspect the results would give most people enough courage to get on the roof of this one story house and run 30 feet of coax!

Originally Posted by dkreichen1968

I'm curious about what would come in with the TV hooked to the old wiring (with a 300 to 75 ohm balun). Not because that would be the best set up, but because I'm curious how well the old wiring has survived the years.

Dan,

Open wire lead-in wires were and are equivilant to longwire antennas. They are great for short-wave radio reception but terrible for analog TV and probably deadly for digital TV reception.

Okay, just for giggles, I'd like to see how well it currently works as well.

Jim

After seeing pictures of ths antenna, I see many of those on older homes in my area. It looks like an older Winegard antenna. As long as the terminals aren't rusted on the antenna, replace the 300 ohm line with a 300 to 75ohm transformer, & like someone else said, run it to the TV to see what you get first. Other than a bent VHF element, that antenna looks like it's still in good condition, & may still work. I bought a Philips VHF/UHF/FM antenna back when few TV stations in the Chicago market were broadcasting a digital signal, & I changed the wire to RG6 coax, hooked up my converter box, scanned, & I got all full power VHF stations, including WBBM-TV when they were on RF 3. That antenna however was poorly designed for UHF, & since the antenna was overall poorly made, I replaced it. I'm using an Antennacraft CS600 VHF antenna & Winegard HD9032 UHF antenna for Chicago, & Winegard HD-1080 2 bay antenna for 1 UHF station south of me. I chose separate VHF and UHF antennas for my setup. Now had my Radioshack VU190 antenna hadn't crashed down in a gust of wind, I would still have that antenna today, & I liked that antenna a lot. I even had an antenna that I believe was a 60's style Channelmaster, which was also damaged in a gust of wind that caused both antennas to hit the ground. I had those 2 hooked together, & got Milwaukee stations on those antennas almost every night without a pre-amp in the analog days. That won't happen now that many Milwaukee stations share RF channels with South Bend, IN stations. Most antennas made then were made to last. That's why I say to try the old antenna before replacing it.

Thanks for the input, MrPogi - I'm going to take your advice and see how it goes. Thanks again to everyone who offered help!

Oh, and IF we actually manage to get reception with this old beat-up antenna, I'll be sure and let you all know! We can't do anything until at least this weekend, but when we finally tackle the job, I'll post the results! Wish me luck!

Originally Posted by terry

Wish me luck!

Good luck, terry!

Rick

Originally Posted by terry

1. the suggestion to use coaxial only- do you mean that it gets wired directly to the old antenna somehow, in place of the flat (two-lead?) wire that comes into the house now, and then run through the house and connected to the tv? Is that easy to do, and if so, are there any detailed instructions someplace on HOW to do it?

To attach it to the aerial you use a device called a balun. It will have two wires, attach them to where your current cable attaches, and attach the coaxial cable to the f-type connection on the other end of the balun. Then waterproof it and secure.

Originally Posted by terry

2. What would be "factory installed fittings"? You mean the coaxial that comes with the pin connector already on it? What if we have the coaxial cable, but it needs a new pin (F-type?) fitting, we shouldn't bother doing that as it won't carry the signal as well? If we DID want to do it, what are the "proper tools"?

He means either use premade cable (will come with f-type fittings on each end) which will come in standard lengths. Or buy a roll yourself and attach the crimps yourself (preferably hex or compression type), though that can take a litlle practice/experience to do well and reliably.

Originally Posted by terry

3. Is repairing this antenna from the roof still dangerous if we turn the main power off to the house? I'm assuming it would be, because the main power line coming in from the pole on the corner isn't that far from the antenna.

The service would need to be physically disconnected from the home. As long as you dont do anything silly, and its a calm day. I really cant see it being a major issue... Just be careful. I can all but guarantee that if you pay to get someone out they arent even going to care about the power.

Originally Posted by terry

4. The "Chimney bracket wraps"...are they commonly used? And are there other, preferred ways to mount an antenna, like a pole or something?

There are many external aerial mounts, including but not limited to:

• Tripod (the standard roof mount)
• Fascia Mount ("Hockey Stick" or gable end mount)
• Ground mounted mast
• Roof mounted mast (guyed)
• Ground mounted mast (guyed)
• Tower

Im not a big fan of chimney mounts. And if the fireplace is used, id strongly recommend not to do it. The heat/soot from the fire ruins the cable jacket.

Originally Posted by terry

5. If we have a few lengths of 25 ft. coaxial laying around, can we use some sort of connectors (not splitters) to make the line longer, without diminishing potential reception of the signal?

They can be joined together with an f-type joiner. The insertion loss is very small (much smaller than splitter loss)

Originally Posted by terry

Lastly, if we chicken out altogether, and I want to hire a pro to do the UNINSTALL of the old antenna, and the INSTALL of a new one what kind of pro do I call? An old-time TV guy? Electrician? Or does everyone just have to do it themselves?

The best installs will be performed buy someone with a signal meter, one that can both see the strength of the channels, but also see the quality of the incoming signal.

Rickideemus, thanks for the support - and nbound, I really appreciate that you took the time to answer my (very basic) questions in a way that a novice can understand-your answers were very clear - Thank you! If the weather is good this weekend, we'll be tackling the project step-by-step. I'll post the results, good or bad - Thanks again!!

Good luck!

Hello, all! Well, I have good news, and bad news. First, the good news...we managed to jury rig the old twin line antenna wire that comes into the house, and we attached it to our new HDTV, and then did a channel scan. Believe it or not, we actually got GREAT reception on a number of channels, which I have to admit, surprised the heck out of both me and my husband. The picture on most of the channels we picked up is crystal clear (definitely as good as our cable box). A couple of the oddball channels I've never heard of had a bit of picture stagger here and there, but the channels that we really watch the most came in beautifully. Now, for the bad news - two of the biggest network channels didn't even register. At all. I did a channel scan twice, tried inputting the channels manually, and also used the keypad remote to input the channels, thinking the tv would at least physically try to go to that channel on the set, even if the antenna didn't recognize anything. But both CBS (Ch. 2) and NBC (ch. 4) appear to be non-existent, at least to my tv and antenna. Can anyone shed light on why this is happening? I don't know how to translate the tvfool report, other than I noticed that some of the other NYC stations that we ARE able to receive are at the same 256 degrees as NBC and CBS, so I'm at a loss to understand what's going on. Sure, we can watch NBC and CBS via HULU and laptop etc, but I feel like it isn't "mission accomplished" until I get all three of the big networks via antenna. Can anyone offer some suggestions as to why this is happening, and if there's anything we can do to fix it? And if it helps, the first channel recognized during the scan is WNEW, Channel 5. Thanks in advance for any help!

Terry,

I suggest you raise your antenna a foot or two and rescan, and/or drop your antenna a foot or two and rescan. Sometimes, signals arrive in layers: by changing the height of your antenna, you may find a 'sweet-spot' where the signals are present. I receive my local NBC channel within a 16" height range ... if my antenna is higher or lower than that 'sweet-spot' I cannot receive it.

It is very possible it is caused by the old twin-lead wiring because unlike coaxial cable, it behaves as its own antenna. Digital reception requires only one signal source and that is your antenna.

You could try pointing your antenna toward the other CBS and NBC channels that appear to cover your area. CBS-22 is at 85 degrees (almost due east) and NBC-30 is at 25 degrees, just east of due north.

Please keep us posted, Jim

Originally Posted by terry

Hello, all! Well, I have good news, and bad news. First, the good news...we managed to jury rig the old twin line antenna wire that comes into the house, and we attached it to our new HDTV, and then did a channel scan. Believe it or not, we actually got GREAT reception on a number of channels, which I have to admit, surprised the heck out of both me and my husband.

Terrific!

Originally Posted by terry

two of the biggest network channels didn't even register. At all. I did a channel scan twice, tried inputting the channels manually, and also used the keypad remote to input the channels, thinking the tv would at least physically try to go to that channel on the set, even if the antenna didn't recognize anything. But both CBS (Ch. 2) and NBC (ch. 4) appear to be non-existent, at least to my tv and antenna. Can anyone shed light on why this is happening?

I got another idea. Did you know you shouldn't be entering the regular (virtual) channel numbers? Until the TV gets a station in its memory, it doesn't "know" the regular channel number. What you have to do is enter the "real" (RF) channel numbers listed on your TV fool report. The RF number for CBS channel 2 is 33, and the RF number for NBC channel 4 is 28.

Try 33 first, it's stronger. You may or may not have to enter a .1 (or -1 or whatever they call it on your TV) after the 33. Also check the menus in your TV or look at the manual if you have it. Different TVs have different procedures to get this done, but they all require the RF number, one way or the other.

Might not need to go on the roof after all.

Rick

A few thoughts:

Although not edge signals, moving up/down could help.
Both channels are @ 256 (true). If your TV has a signal meter, tune into another channel that is @ 256 and tweak the direction until you get the best signal, and do a re scan.
If that fails, go for the new RG6 coax - which you should do anyway, because that old 2-lead won't last forever.

If some of your channels are still breaking up, you might consider a pre amp to make the signal more reliable.

Again, thanks for the input, guys - Jim, I don't think we can raise or lower the antenna - although we didn't get on the roof (still trying to put that off as long as possible) it doesn't look like it's configured in a way that allows for that. Do most modern antennas have some sort of telescoping mast or something? Even if this one did have that ability, it looks so rusted (from the ground, anyway) that I doubt we'd be able to do much in that regard. Rick, I gave your suggestion a try too - the tv finally recognized that a channel 2 exists, but there's no signal at all. Channel 4 still didn't register. Funny thing is, after I tried your idea, the tv actually pulled in 9 more channels after the scan, but it also LOST two that I had gotten before that last scan. Frustrating, to say the least. I guess MrP's idea is what we'll have to do next, although we're going to put it off for a bit. I'm considering having the siding on the house re-done soon, at which point we might as well remove the old dinosaur antenna and just get a whole new setup. The siding guys would have to dis-assemble the wiring and such to redo the fascia regardless, so it would make sense to install a new antenna at that point - on the OTHER side of the chimney, away from the main powerline. And it doesn't help that my husband seemed surprised that I'm going to all this trouble to save the $15 bucks a month the basic cable costs us. He doesn't get that it's the principle of the thing...cable tv has been ripping people off for years, and I don't see the point in paying for anything that we can get for FREE. Anyway, sorry to talk your ears off... I'm going to do some reading-up on how these new antennas work (I'm boggled that there are amps and pre-amps and power and all that...our old one doesn't have any of that stuff). I really really appreciate all the help you've offered, and that you were all so patient answering my (sometimes silly) questions. And on the bright side, we do have a few extra channels now that I didn't even know existed. Thanks again for all the help, and now I'm off to do some antenna research!

With new cables and a new antenna pointed at 270 degrees magnetic (256 degrees true) you shouldn't need an amp or preamp. I'd go with a Winegard HD 7694P.

$15 for basic cable? Man, that is on the low end. At least $25 in this area. What does that give you? Can't be much. Has your cable system gone digital yet?

You're right, it doesn't get us much - all we get are all the stations that a good antenna hook up would give me for free. In this neck of the woods, what our cable company calls "basic" is actually channels 2-22 (major networks, PBS, a few spanish language channels and three or four local LI and NYC stations), all of which I picked up on the old antenna - Except for CBS and NBC. And yes, it's all-digital now. I'm in the minority, by the way, as most people around here have to have the whole nine yards that cable offers - we're talking maybe $200 a month for HBO, SHOWTIME, every sports channel imaginable... the odd duck people like me who opt for the basic package do it for reception, because the cable company has everyone (including me, up to a few days ago) brainwashed into thinking you can't GET digital signals without a cable box . And I'm positive most people don't even realize that a modern-day version of antenna tv is even an option. $15 a month isn't a big deal, but the older I get, the more I'd like to simplify my life - and ditching that cable box would be a step in that direction.

Originally Posted by terry

Rick, I gave your suggestion a try too

Not a suggestion so much as the only way it can possibly work.

Originally Posted by terry

- the tv finally recognized that a channel 2 exists, but there's no signal at all. Channel 4 still didn't register. Funny thing is, after I tried your idea, the tv actually pulled in 9 more channels after the scan, but it also LOST two that I had gotten before that last scan.

Not too surprising, really. I'm afraid those cedars are giving you a problem. You still never reported on your compass reading vis a vis 269 degrees. (See, you skipped a step. ) In catching RF waves, line-of-sight is everything Also, there's another RF 33 coming from the north that could be confusing your tuner. Just rotating the antenna a few degrees might help.

I also get several stations from a big city (Chicago) from a tall tower. Yours come from the Empire State Building, mine come from the old Sears Tower (now Willis). I've come to the conclusion some of those stations deliberately cut the power when atmospheric conditions tell them it's going to be too strong for local residents, overpowering their tuners. Too strong a signal is just as useless as too weak, but that doesn't help people like us who live several miles away. So keep trying the scans as the weather changes. BTW, check to see if your TV has an "add channels" scan, so you don't lose stations from memory every time. Or just enter the RF numbers individually, like you did with 33 and 28.

Originally Posted by terry

it doesn't help that my husband seemed surprised that I'm going to all this trouble to save the $15 bucks a month the basic cable costs us. He doesn't get that it's the principle of the thing...cable tv has been ripping people off for years, and I don't see the point in paying for anything that we can get for FREE.

Unfortunately, unless you get that compass to guarantee the cedars are not the problem, your husband might be right for once. There's no guarantee a different antenna can fight that off, unless you can elevate above the tree line.

Do you know about Aero.com - The Future Of Aviation Information ? I don't know if you are in one of the "select surrounding areas" of New York, or if you have the supported device (Apple iOS, I guess), but there's an $8 a month plan. Might be something to look into. Might all go up in smoke eventually, but so far they're winning the law suits. Fascinating copyright conundrum.

Originally Posted by terry

(I'm boggled that there are amps and pre-amps and power and all that...our old one doesn't have any of that stuff).

But a pre-amp can work with any antenna, if you want to try that.

Rick

Originally Posted by Rickideemus

I also get several stations from a big city (Chicago) from a tall tower. Yours come from the Empire State Building, mine come from the old Sears Tower (now Willis). I've come to the conclusion some of those stations deliberately cut the power when atmospheric conditions tell them it's going to be too strong for local residents, overpowering their tuners

For non-tropospheric propogation, the signal will not vary by too much (several db each way). They would run at the maximum output 24/7. The only broadcasters who adjust for atmospherics or time of day are in the Khz ranges.