Question: Do I Need VHF/UHF or UHF Only????
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Do I Need VHF/UHF or UHF Only????


This is a discussion on Do I Need VHF/UHF or UHF Only???? within the DTV | HDTV Reception and Antenna Discussion forums, part of the Over-the-Air (Antenna TV) category.

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  1. #1
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    Do I Need VHF/UHF or UHF Only????

    Winegard recommends a VHF/UHF antenna but I think all the channels I want are actually UHF only including 2-1 KTVU, 4-1 KRON, 5-1 KPIX, 7-1 KGO and on up. No need for VHF, or am I mistaken?

    Winegard recommendation:

    The San Francisco TV channels are 49 miles from you at a compass heading of 144 degrees south east and are not line of sight (LOS) which means that theses channels will be received by you via reflections off the ground or the atmosphere and may be marginal at times. You also have some local repeaters in your area which may or may not be received off the side of the antenna pointed toward San Francisco . The best antenna system Winegard can offer you would be the HD7084P antenna and an AP-8700 preamplifier mounted at 40 feet high if possible.

    TV Fool report: for 95407

    TV Fool


    FCC for 95407:
    (Looks like two channels I need to get, 7-1 and 11-1 are High-VHF so maybe I do need the VHF/UHF antenna?)

    Click on callsign for detail
    Strong Signal KRCB PBS 22-1 UHF
    Strong Signal KTLN IND 68-1 UHF
    Moderate Signal KEMO unknown 50-1 UHF
    Moderate Signal KGO ABC 7-1 Hi-V
    Weak Signal KQED PBS 9-1 UHF
    Weak Signal KPIX CBS 5-1 UHF
    Weak Signal KCNS IND 38-1 UHF
    Weak Signal KRON MYTV 4-1 UHF
    Weak Signal KTVU FOX 2-1 UHF
    Weak Signal KMTP ETV 32-1 UHF
    Weak Signal KBCW CW 44-1 UHF
    Weak Signal KFSF TELEFUTURA 66-1 UHF

    Weak Signal KOFY IND 20-1 UHF
    Weak Signal KCSM PBS 60-1 UHF
    Weak Signal KNTV NBC 11-1 Hi-V
    Weak Signal KKPX ION 65-1 UHF
    Weak Signal KTSF IND 26-1 UHF
    No Signal KTNC TUVISION 42-1 UHF
    No Signal KDTV UNIVISION 14-1 UHF
    No Signal KICU IND 36-1 UHF
    No Signal KSTS TELEMUNDO 48-1 UHF

    Appreciate any antenna Recommendation or confirmation that the 7084p is what I should get?

  2. #2
    The Graveyard Shift
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    Anything broadcasting on real (as opposed to virtual) channel 13 or below will require a VHF antenna for better reception. And the very low numbered channels will require an antenna which handles VHF-low well for better reception. I dont know which of those are repeaters for the main stations you are after but only knowing that can we make a good recommendation. On the off chance you have to aim for the weak KTVU and others directly, you will need a very powerful antenna (or almost certainly separate VHF and UHF antennas) as the 7084P wont cut it (assuming predicted levels are correct).
    nbound-au is a qualified Antenna, Satellite, and MATV installer.

    I live in DVB-T land.


  3. #3
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    You are in a tough location, and I'd definitely wait for some feedback from the pros who hang here, before laying out $150+ for the system Winegard recommends.

    I can't find much on the second strongest station in your lineup -- K02QO. That's RF2 -- definitely VHF. It's a low powered station from "One Mission Corp" so sounds like religious programming.

    Then you have TWO (2) stations coming in on RF3 just a couple dB apart in strength. That might cause a problem with mutipath. Can't find much on those either. You might wind up crossing those two off your list.

    Then you have KGO-TV (ABC) and KNTV (NBC), both VHF. These are already getting down to pretty low NM signal quality, so you'll certainly need a very strong VHF/UHF antenna. KTVU RF44 is UHF, but getting down to a rarified NM level. If you really "need" that station, you'll probly have to point a powerful Yagi right at 145 degrees magnetic. But you also have some desired stations at 10, 30, 56 and 100 degrees.

    From my understanding, the HD7084P is very directional, so that's a problem. Either way, this might be one of those rare cases where a rotator is essential.

    It's going to take some time to work this out. Hang in there!

  4. #4
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    Try running a report at RabbitEars:
    RabbitEars.Info

    if nothing else, it will identify what those mystery channels are.

  5. #5
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    okie_flats,

    KGO-7/ABC and KNTV-12/NBC are two channels I'd go after using an AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 or a similar high-band VHF antenna. I would prefer to see more director elements (for more gain) but I'm not sure any models are currently available. It can be mounted in a fixed position on your mast. AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 Highband-Broadband VHF HD Yagi TV Antenna for Channels 7-13 (Y5-7-13) from Solid Signal

    A UHF-specific antenna could be mounted with a rotor above it, if you want to try to capture UHF stations from NW and SE and the two antennas can be combined on one coaxial cable using a UVSJ.

    Jim

    * PS to the group: does anyone know of a longer High-band VHF Yagi currently available than the one I listed above?


    One option would be to alter the antenna like this:

    Modified AntennaCraft Yagi, for more gain

    http://www.antennahacks.com/Hacks/MyY10-7-13V.htm
    Last edited by Fringe Reception; 12-17-2012 at 02:45 PM.

  6. #6
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    We have upto 18el yagis for VHF-High over here, doubt the shipping would be worthwhile though :P :
    Heres an example (14dB gain):
    RPG - SXDD0515 - VHF

    There is of course the 16 element phased array aswell (upto 16dB gain):
    RPG - SXDD0515 - VHF
    For which you can also purchase gain lifters for VHF low (AU2 = US3-4):
    RPG - SXDD0515 - VHF


    Both these antennas are AU 6-12, which is the same as US 7-13 and then a little on the top end. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../VHF_Usage.svg

    The 18el yagi is ~3.5m (~12ft) long, when assembled! The phased array is more compact and often provides better gain.

    Perhaps similar can be sourced over in the US... I wouldnt like to rotate either antenna without a decent rotor.

    And on a funny side note, the 5el is the largest VHF-High on that US site, on the site i linked above they are classing a 7el as "Inner Metro"
    Last edited by nbound-au; 12-17-2012 at 05:21 PM.
    Fringe Reception likes this.
    nbound-au is a qualified Antenna, Satellite, and MATV installer.

    I live in DVB-T land.


  7. #7
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    Thread Starter

    As added info, I currently use my old VHF/UHF antenna from Radio Shack which I have had since 2000 when everything was analog. I get both Channel 7 and 11 very well and those are my local ABC and NBC stations (KGO and KNTV). They are VHF, high-VHF apparently.

    I would like ch 5 (CBS-KPIX), ch 2 (FOX-Ktvu), ch 4 (KRON) and Ch 9 (PBS-KQED). I used to get all these fine back in the analog days but lost them with the switch to DTV. I do still get them sometimes, but rarely and when the weather is clear and cold it seems.

    Ironically if I turn the antenna East I can often get Sacramento stations better than san francisco even though that is further away.

    What prompted my question is that I realized my missing stations, 2, 4, 5 and 9 are NOT EVEN VHF , but rather UHF, due to being virtual, I guess. I really would like to get Ch 5 to watch CBS news, and used to get it fine when it was analog.

    So I think I will get a good directional UHF only antenna to pick up these extra ones that I want, since they are all UHF. And keep my current one, since it is already getting 7 and 11 high-VHF just fine. See if that will work somehow and combine the two as suggested here in the replies.

    So I guess I am looking for a UHF and to combine it with the current one, and maybe that will work better and be cheaper than what 7084p winegard has.

    Thank you all for the help, I will look into the recs and get one.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrPogi View Post
    Try running a report at RabbitEars:
    RabbitEars.Info

    if nothing else, it will identify what those mystery channels are.
    According to RabbitEars, all three mystery channels, K03IC-D, K14MW-D, and K02QO-D are owned by "One Ministries, INC." There is also a One Ministries INC. in Santa Rosa, CA that broadcasts "broken FM" radio: Broken FM | Christian Rock Radio | Christian Alternative Music | KORB -- a Christian alternative rock station.

    Since there is NO info on Wikipedia or elsewhere about these TV stations, I suspect these are just "Audio only" rebroadcasts of the FM station. Since the OP is getting VHF fairly well, he could tune to RF2 to check it out.

    R.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by okie_flats View Post
    Thank you all for the help, I will look into the recs and get one.
    I think all the recs thus far have been on the VHF side. If you want to look into a UHF only antenna to combine with your VHF, this might be a possibility:

    Winegard HD-9032 UHF Prostar 1000 TV Antenna (HD9032) from Solid Signal

    But please don't go just on my recommendation. Wait for more feedback. I am NOT an expert on the big Yagis.

    Rick
    Fringe Reception likes this.

  10. #10
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    I would suggest something like:
    Antennas Direct 91XG UHF TV Antenna (91XG) from Solid Signal

    Or for the more adventurous/crazy and/or wanting multiple outlets:
    PU16F – Laceys.tv | TV antennas for the trade (similar should be available in the US, they are manufactured by Fracarro (A big european antenna company)).
    You would not want that on rotator in a gale or probably ever, and it would need to be EXTREMELY stable due to the highly focussed beam.
    You would need to double check it covers US channel ranges with manufacturer. As your UHF starts lower than AU.


    In the light of all that I would strongly recommend the 91element, or even an 8bay phased array (which may or may not be slightly worse than the 91el). But I like to post what is available, if people do have a deathwish... I mean... want to try it!
    Last edited by nbound-au; 12-18-2012 at 02:15 AM.
    nbound-au is a qualified Antenna, Satellite, and MATV installer.

    I live in DVB-T land.


  11. #11
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    Rather than use a UVSJ/diplexer, use a low noise pre-amp with separate UHF/VHF inputs.
    nbound-au is a qualified Antenna, Satellite, and MATV installer.

    I live in DVB-T land.


  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by nbound-au View Post
    Rather than use a UVSJ/diplexer, use a low noise pre-amp with separate UHF/VHF inputs.
    Something that's becoming increasingly harder to find, since manufacturers are trying to shave costs: One of our favorites, The Channel Master CM 7777, just had its inputs combined. Winegard has done the same - they didn't even change the case, you can see where the second input used to go.

  13. #13
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    Antennacraft 10G221 and 10G222 to the rescue.
    Snappy Dan Reminds You:

    DO NOT install antennas anywhere where they could fall into overhead power lines!!! An antenna falling into power lines may result in electrical shock or death. All outdoor antennas must be grounded in accordance with the National Electrical Code (NEC). Be careful while working on roofs or towers. Always use appropriate safety precautions!!!

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by nbound-au View Post
    Antennas Direct 91XG UHF TV Antenna (91XG) from Solid Signal

    I would strongly recommend the 91element,
    OK, I'll order the 91 ! element.


    " A Large Directional antenna, beam width of about 25 degrees.

    Range: up to 70+ Miles

    Max Gain 16.7 dB "

    Sounds like a fairly wide beam width for a directional antenna. I intend to remove my existing old VHF/UHF unit and put this up there and see if I get the main channels I really want. Mainly Ch 5.1 CBS-KPIX which is UHF. Then hopefully also 2, 4 and 9.

    Then if that shows success get a pre-amp with combining inputs, as rec'd:

    " Antennacraft 10G221 and 10G222 to the rescue."

    Since I am new to this, take it a step at a time. Also not get a rotator until I know I need one.

    This Winegard UHF: "Winegard HD-9032 UHF Prostar 1000 TV Antenna (HD9032) from Solid Signal " looks too much like the UHF component of the old antenna I already have so I am thinking the 91-element is probably a better bet, more gain I assume.

    Thanks all for the recs.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrPogi View Post
    Something that's becoming increasingly harder to find, since manufacturers are trying to shave costs: One of our favorites, The Channel Master CM 7777, just had its inputs combined. Winegard has done the same - they didn't even change the case, you can see where the second input used to go.
    Heh, its completely the opposite here, with single input wideband amps being in the small minority. Funnily enough, I cant get my hands on something as simple as an A/B switch here (uneeded due to our transmitter site setups), while I imagine its not too hard to find in the US.
    Fringe Reception likes this.
    nbound-au is a qualified Antenna, Satellite, and MATV installer.

    I live in DVB-T land.


  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by nbound-au View Post
    Heh ... Funnily enough, I cant get my hands on something as simple as an A/B switch here (uneeded due to our transmitter site setups), while I imagine its not too hard to find in the US.
    AU,

    I can buy a bunch for you here and ship them to you. No problemo.

    Jim
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  17. #17
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    I only need the one at the moment, and its not actually required (I can work around it). So not worth your time, but offer definitely appreciated!
    nbound-au is a qualified Antenna, Satellite, and MATV installer.

    I live in DVB-T land.


  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickideemus View Post
    I think all the recs thus far have been on the VHF side. If you want to look into a UHF only antenna to combine with your VHF, this might be a possibility:

    Winegard HD-9032 UHF Prostar 1000 TV Antenna (HD9032) from Solid Signal

    But please don't go just on my recommendation. Wait for more feedback. I am NOT an expert on the big Yagis.

    Rick
    The only good thing about the Winegard HD9032 antenna, is that you can combine a VHF only antenna to it, & use 1 coax to the TV. I have this antenna, but I'm already planning to replace it with the Antennas Direct DB8. The Winegard HD9032 is a super directional antenna for weaker stations. It usually works ok for strong stations, but must be pointed at the weaker stations in order to work properly. That is the problem I have with a few low power stations that come out of Chicago, & this antenna doesn't always pick them up right. With the OP living around Santa Rosa, CA, this antenna could be even more challenging than it is for me, due to terrain. I only have large trees to worry about for blocking certain signals.

  19. #19
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    Well, I have ordered the 91-element, Antennas Direct 91XG UHF, and my "plan" if you can call it that is to put it up and see what happens.

    Mainly I would like to get 2-1, 5-1, 4-1, and 9-1 which are all UHF, and include CBS, FOX, etc.

    Have not even ordered a pre-amp yet.

    Probably need a VHF and UHF combining pre-amp as rec'd above to add back in VHF from my old antenna to get the high VHF ch 7 and 11.

    Maybe need a rotator. Will see if turning the UHF is needed. Can turn it by twisting the pole. I have 32 foot pole going from ground level to well above the peak of my roof.

    Thank you all.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by okie_flats View Post
    Mainly I would like to get 2-1, 5-1, 4-1, and 9-1 which are all UHF, and include CBS, FOX, etc.
    Anything below NM = 10 dB on your TVFool report is going to be a challenge, and that's most of those.

    Quote Originally Posted by okie_flats View Post
    Have not even ordered a pre-amp yet.
    That's good, because a pre-amp is a mixed bag -- it can easily do more harm than good. It all depends on the length of coax between antenna and TV, and how many times you're splitting the signal. And we don't have that information.

    Any Yagi is going to be highly directional, but that's what provides the needed gain for the weak 2Edge stations you say you need. It's hard to see how you'll get by without a rotor -- but one step at a time.

    Rick
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