Beth1079

Don_M

I think I've seen the same antenna at our local big-box home center. It's apparently doing everything it was designed to do here, but the TVFool report confirms your suspicions -- it's not really up to the job in your area. Here's what I'd recommend:

• Antenna: Winegard HD-7696P. The distance estimates Winegard publishes are actually shorter than those for your RCA antenna, but you can safely ignore that: Winegard tends to be very conservative when quoting distance and antenna gain. This model has at least twice the signal-pulling gain of the RCA, and the difference might be as much as three or four times. (I can't be certain because RCA doesn't publish antenna specs. That's usually a sign that there's nothing to brag about!)

• Amplifier: Unless what you're already using is a Winegard or Channel Master model that's less than 10 years old, replacing the amplifier with a Channel Master Titan 7777 pre-amplifier would be a wise investment. It's among the lowest-noise pre-amps available. That's crucial in fringe areas such as where you live. Noise from a pre-amp drowns weak signals in a hurry. Amplifier noise in TV reception is a bit like listening to your favorite tune: It's tougher to hear the details when the recording is on a decades-old cassette tape (run-of-the-mill amps) than on a Compact Disc (the CM 7777).

• Cabling: If you have fairly new RG-6 coaxial cable going up the mast, you're all set. But if it's RG-6 coax that's more than about a decade old, it's RG-59 coax or, worse, flat brown or black twinlead, get some black RG-6 and replace the whole thing, from antenna to TV(s). (The black jacket offers the best resistance to UV damage outdoors.) Bad cabling is more than enough to sap reception, even from the best antennas and pre-amps. Best of all, it's inexpensive relative to other components.

IDRick

Hi Beth1079.

I have personal experience with the EZ HD antenna (same as the RCA751). It works very well in my situation but my weakest signal is your strongest signal. Plus, the major networks are 2.5 to 3 times stronger than your strongest PBS station. IMO, the EZ HD/RCA Ant751 have a place, those with high NM on tvfool (30+).

I agree with Don M's comments, the Winegard 7696 is a great choice in your situation.


Rick

Eureka

+1 on all of Don's suggestions, including the Winegard 7696 antenna & CM 7777 preamp. Speaking from experience, the published mileage ratings of the 769x series are underrated compared to what I've seen from actual installations.

If you can raise your antenna higher, that may help, too. To find out, try changing your antenna height setting on TVFool.

Piggie

Personally I would go one up to the 7698p.

Why? The first VHF is -2.1 NM WJRT on RF 12 ABC, which will be about 8 NM with the 7698p into the preamp in perfect conditions. And actually my personal experience that is cutting it close on VHF. The next VHF is WBKB on VHF 11 is not only too weak to consider, but would require a rotor.

I really think this requires that biggest baddest antenna you can buy, which is the Winegard 7698P.

And I can do the everyone agrees that a Channel Master 7777 is the best amp in these weak signal situations.

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The more I understand, the less I know.

Piggie

It's not all about just gain. Even thought the 7698p does have about 1.5 db more gain on channel 12.

The boom is almost half again as long. Remember doubling a boom is the same as stacking an identical antenna, so a 7698p is something like having a 7696p with a 7694 stacked on top of it (don't try this it won't work in practice, just making a point).

Real world example from my backyard (sty). I had a YA-1713 up 30 ft with no hint of Jacksonville except in good tropo. I added a second one 40 inches below it which in theory was at best 2.5 db of gain, but Jacksonville VHF popped out of the woodwork. Much greater increase than 2.5 db

So where did the "gain" come from? Since more people in today understand UHF than VHF let me call the "thing" that gave me more gain was "knife edge".

Where with UHF if you are past the horizon and behind a modest hill of a 100 to a few hundred feet, it's well known that tilting the antenna up, pointing at the crest of the hill, will often pull in UHF that is otherwise blocked by that hill.

VHF being a longer wavelength has much different properties. For VHF to "knife edge" the hill has to be much farther away. From my experience even more than the relative wavelengths of the two bands.

So a longer boom yagi, or vertically stacked yagis lower the angle of reception (radiation in transmit) from higher in the sky to closer to the horizon. At the same time energy or reception wasted on the earth in front of the array is also tighten toward the horizon. This gives your vertical beamwidth looking at the horizon the best it can. It also reduces ground reflections in front of the array.

Which is better , a long boom yagi or stacking? This has been a long debate in the 2meter SSB world since I have been a ham. But one they both of those schools agree on if you want the best DX you can get, either go long boom or stack.

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Or you can look at this another way, the OPs signals are weaker than mine on VHF by about 10 db and I have a difficult time at 30 ft holding stations with my stacked array.

I vote the big boy, 7698p for this case.

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The more I understand, the less I know.

Eureka

Gain comparison chart of the Winegard HD769x antennas here. (.pdf ~162k)

Beth1079

Thank you all so much for the load of info! Being a newbie with antennas, I had no idea how much info there was out there. I just got sick of paying for cable when we really only watch 2 or 3 channels.

We ended up going with the 7698p and the channel master 7777 pre-amp that everyone recommended. I'll let you all know how it comes out when we get everything set up.

Thanks again!
Beth

Piggie

While the single most important aspect often of antennas, remember gain alone doesn't make the antenna, nor make it the best antenna.

Actually the more I play with antennas, in particular lately with receiving digital streams beamwidth seems even more important with digital multipath. Front to side not even listed on TV antennas may be way more important than front to back which is listed.

Take my situation. An old 4221A has more gain than a U-75R, yet I have better reception with the U-75R because it has much better front to side, as a 4221A has excellent front to back and it didn't cure my multipath.

It may be my newest cause to push TV antenna manufacturers to publish front to side specs.

However it the company is good, they publish a radiation plot of their antennas, which one can then see and or interpolate the front to side at varies degrees.

After all most multipath is not from the rear, nor is it from 90 degrees to the side. Most of it is at some acute angle (angles less than 90 degrees).

Since it's very hard to "guess" multipath angle unless a large known object is adjacent to a direct path, it's mostly guess work.

Again take my situation. The U-75R has a 3db beamwidth of about 47 to 48 degrees. But that doesn't tell me much how fast it drops off after 24 or so degrees to either side. But I know from real world test at my house it's enough to push the multipath 15db below the main beam compared to a 4221A. Ken Nist (hdtvprimer.com) does have plots of a 4221A but not the U-75R, which leaves me guessing.

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Then like I said the tightening of the vertical beam here in Florida on VHF with our subtle rise and fall of our sand hills, puts a lot of stations 1 edge that would otherwise on flat ground be LOS or those that would only be 1 edge, 2 edge. The most available signal just like pointing at the top of hill on a ridge is at the horizon. I learned that trick playing with 144MHz SSB (Single SideBand) ham bands. Two antennas pointed at Orlando 85 miles away made more difference than just the 2.5 db gain expected. I had the same result stacking YA-1713's pointed here to Jacksonville FL. I had no way to measure it, but if you get up 30 or more feet on high band, stack vertically, you will see 6 to 10 db more gain on some stations over the horizon not just the 3 db predicted.

On 2 meter SSB I had meters to measure better and it's probably closer to 6 to 8 db more signal (not using the word gain, just more signal). On WJCT, a single antenna went from only seeing Ch 7 during moderate to strong tropo, to seeing it all the time. That had to have been more than 3db, which will will only make VHF dropouts slightly less. Even VHF stations that raised 6db did not see the reception improvement they expected to their viewers. Hence why I believe it really is closer to an 8 db or more signal narrowing as much beamwidth at the horizon as possible. ( also not stacking is not the only way to do this, as doubling the boom length will also increase gain by 3 db and tighten both horizontal and vertical beamwidth.

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The more I understand, the less I know.

Piggie

Eureka, thanks for compiling the gain charts together! I didn't mean to subjugate your effort! My intention was to add to the discussion.

__________________
The more I understand, the less I know.