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Old 09-22-2009, 01:27 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Antenna Gain - Is it the ultimate measure of a better antenna?

Let me start with manufacturers that use mileage, that is a real joke. Simply if there is a hill in the way a 60 mile antenna is not going work any better than a 30 mile antenna pointed straight at the hill. Mileage is the worst way to judge an antenna, then add to fact those like the Chinese Ebay antenna, totally lie about 100 mile range. Sure they will do 100 miles, if the TV station is on top of a mountain, and you are on the top of a mountain and there are no mountains between you and the TV station, then yeah, probably work 100 miles.

That myth out of the way, gain while probably the single most important aspect of measuring an antenna is not always the best nor the only factor in good reception.

Two very good examples when pure gain is not what receives the signal in an antenna.

1) Probably the most common problem not solved by just gain is multipath. Most multipath comes in from the sides, and most at an acute angle to the main lobe (acute angles are those less than 90 degrees). This means it comes in reflected from somewhere very near the main beam to from the sides. Though multipath can be from the rear, it's less common. So except where you need a lot of beam width and you don't have multipath concerns, an antenna with a narrow beam width will in general be a better DTV antenna.

Probably the worst offenders though excellent antennas are the 2 and 4 bay whisker antennas. They have excellent gain, but poor front to side rejection. The antenna is just a 2 element beam with other 2 element beams stacked. There are no directors to limit the side reception. Nor are their any other driven elements stacked beside them such as the 8 bays (which I like to think of as two 4 bays stacked horizontally).

Much better for front to side without sacrificing a lot of gain are short boom yagi's with corner reflectors. Many models are made. The beam width of them on the shortest models is close to a 4 bay. The longer they are though you do then sacrifice wide beam width for gain, in a narrower forward beam, but you gain tremendous front to side rejection.

A good example of this is my situation. I have UHF towers are 54 degrees apart. A 4221A has beam width of 52 to 57 degrees on my channels 16-36. Seems like a match made in heaven! Well until the wind blows and leaves are full of water in spring and summer, then two of my channels constantly break up with multipath. The beam width is just too wide. I receive the signals reflecting from trees too far to the right and to the left. It was unacceptable to watch TV. I replaced it was a U-75R that has a beam width of 47 degrees. What is not told is the U-75R has much better front to side rejection. My multipath problems were solved.

Why is this so? Better yet how can you tell from looking at antenna plots?

First look at the 4221 overhead plot vs the 4228 overhead plot:



Notice how much faster past the 3 db point (beam width) the gain drops off.

Now look at the Winegard 9032:



Notice that in both a log boom corner reflector yagi and the 8 bay, the beam lobe is "squeezed" more into a thinner "oval" where with the 4 bay it's much rounder. This is the core difference why a yagi solved my multipath problems.

Now sure I could have put up a 4228 or a Winegard 8800 but not only are they twice the price, but many many times heavier and catch a lot more wind.

I really think while the DTV transition took to the 4 and 8 bay antenna in a whirlwind of the ultimate solution, most people are much better served with a long boom yagi that is much easier to manage than an 8 bay on a pole.

2) Narrowing the vertical beam width on VHF toward the horizon. This is really the same argument but with a different twist, problem and result.

The same arguments and lessons above apply here but instead of looking as narrowing the beam width in the azimuth or horizontal side to side, this looks at narrowing it in the vertical or elevation up and down.

If you read about unusual reception, you have probably heard about picking up UHF stations behind a hill but pointing the antenna up at the top of the hill. Yes this works. It's from the UHF signals being bent or refracted by the top edge of the hill. You will sometimes hear this called knife edge reception.

On VHF, the bending is much more subtle due to the much longer wave length. This trick only works well if you are on relatively flat ground or your distance horizon is not blocked by a hill or mountain.

By stacking vertically or doubling the boom length of long boom yagis (2 wavelengths or more) you will gain on paper 3 db. But what is not shown is squeezing of the beam width vertically. This places more signal reception right at the horizon, with less wasted on the open sky above or very important, fewer ground reflections from in front of the antenna or array.

Most of the signal from stations that are not LOS are right there at the horizon, something 2m Amateurs operating the 144MHz band have known for years. Build that antenna long or stack on top of the other.

While this doesn't help front to side rejection it's normally done with long boom yagis that already inherently have good front to side rejection.

A very good example to look at this effect though not a VHF antenna is the 4221 (that I didn't like for UHF but makes a great example here for the vertical stacking effect).

Compare the azimuth vs elevation plots for the 4221 antenna.



Note since a 4 bay is actually 4 bowtie dipoles stacked on top of each other we can compare this to stacking VHF antennas. Look how much more "squeezed" the elevation plot is the azimuth plot. This is also the 4221's forte' and where it gets it's gain. However as stated in 1) above, on UHF multipath is much worse and vertical squeezing of beam width is less important in a lot of cases than horizontal tightening.

As a practical example of how vertical stacking works on over the horizon (not LOS) signals helps.

If I point at Gainesville, WNBW is 37 miles and LOS at 18 ft AGL at my house. My VHF stack is up 30 ft well above that, hence clear LOS to the station. When I added the second antenna, reception barely improved. This makes sense because stacking at best improves your gain by 2.5 db, hardly enough to notice. It's about enough to make drop outs on a signal on the edge a little less server, which is exactly what I happened.

Now on a non-LOS stations like Jacksonville is from my house. LOS to them is about 400 ft AGL at my house, yet I am only up 30 ft, mainly to get 4 wavelengths above my metal roof where you get away from most effects of the roof.

Toward WJCT in Jacksonville, I could only decode it in moderate to strong tropo on one antenna. WJXX and WTLV decoded about 50% of the time. All stations 61 miles away from 300 meter towers, so even on perfectly flat ground they are about 10 miles past LOS to a 30 ft antenna on my end. On top of that it's not level between me and Jacksonville, so it's a 2 edge path.

But when I added the second antenna, WJCT starting decoding about 60 to 70 percent of the time, and WTLV and WJXX are now there 90% of the time. Much greater than expected from simply 2.5 db of gain. Probably the effect one would see from 6 to 8 db or more of increased gain. No it doesn't make gain from no where, it simply puts the signal reception right where most of the signal exists which really is gain, but for the situation. It's hard to tell how much was gained by reducing ground reflections as stacking also pulling the more of the pattern off the ground in front of the antenna or array.

It's a long debate for terrestrial 144 MHz Amateur band reception is enhanced but stacking vs doubling the boom length (remember they both yield the same increase or close). From my experience stacking works better. Now if you are doing moon bounce or meter scater the longer boom seems to work better by reducing lobes cleanly in all planes, where as stacking always creates some odd side lobes. Hence this could be applied to TV reception. If the station is LOS, use a longer boom yagi, if it's over the horizon, consider stacking two antennas vertically. But don't expect this to work that well on on UHF, as there is much less UHF scattered at the horizon than at VHF when looking at a distance horizon.

My appreciation to Ken Nist at HDTVPrimer.com for the use of his images.
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Old 09-23-2009, 08:36 AM   #2 (permalink)
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The manufactures mileage claims on any antenna can vary greatly and can vary either way. You may get less mileage or you may get significantly more.

Take for example my antennas. I have two U4000's (4-bay type) and a Radio Shack 15-624 (2-bay). The U4000 is rated at (I think) 60 miles while the 15-624 is suppose to be good for 20 or 30 miles.

Both styles of antennas will pickup most of the Cincinnati channels at 42 miles away and both will pick up WWHO out of Chillicothe, Ohio which is 54 miles aways.

On the other hand neither antenna will pick up the Columbus station at 61 miles way but that could be due to my antennas being in the attic.

Like Piggie said, there's a lot of factors involved in good reception such as terrain, multi-path interference, the tv stations transmitting power, etc, and there can be no guarantee one way or the other when it comes to reception range.
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Old 09-23-2009, 10:22 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Mileage figures should all be taken with a grain of salt. YMMV.

Example: I'm sitting here watching UHF channels over 71 miles away, with only this unamp'd antenna sitting on top of my monitor. Would the same antenna get you channels from that far away? It depends, but probably not. I'm on a 1400' hilltop and have LOS to the stations' towers, which are ~3,000' above mean sea level.
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Old 09-23-2009, 12:14 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Mileage ratings on antennas need to die. They don't need to be justified or even given some degree of legitimacy by even saying mileage my vary.

They are just simply misleading at best, and exaggerated lies in the worst cases. If they were a bigger consumer item I am sure the Interstate Commerce Commission would be all over them. But in the scheme of things there a niche retail item, flying under the radar, except by a few people that know mileage claims never ever did a single person a bit of good in choosing an antenna.

Sorta surprising it was brought up again, as a good part of the gist (or I thought I got this idea across) was even comparing antenna by legitimately measured db gain figures was not the total answer to be solution.

A good part of bringing back up mileage was for me to slam it back into the ground for the misleading worthless measure of antenna performance that it represents.
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Old 09-23-2009, 07:54 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I agree with you here Piggie but there does need to be a way to let the average consumer know which antennas are better.
It really wouldn't be anymore fair to let someone think that all tv antennas are the same.

It's almost a given that a two bay bow tie is going to be better than a single bow tie antenna and a 4-bay will be better than a 2-bay and etc, so there needs to be some kind of rating system to reflect that for those wouldn't know better.

IMO what there should be is a universal formula for measuring an antennas performance instead of letting each manufacturer pull some number out of the sky. Not sure how this could be done though.
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Old 09-27-2009, 05:09 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Got to agree

I have been playing a lot of with antennas over the years. The big antennas do pick up better with gain on the close stations. On good nites I can step a pair of rabbit ears just outside my room on the ground and pick up statoins up to 100 miles away. I can even use aluminuma foil to do the same by making it a bow tie. So antennas with a distance rating a 5 to 15 miles can sometimes be just as good as one rated 100 miles. All antenna really is, is something to that can caugh the singal that is already there if the signal is not there the antenna will not be available to caugh it even if the station is only 25 miles away. If you live in a metal buiding will not be able to get the recption that you would get if you live in a house made of wood siding or buck.
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Old 09-27-2009, 08:29 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim58hsv View Post
I agree with you here Piggie but there does need to be a way to let the average consumer know which antennas are better.
It really wouldn't be anymore fair to let someone think that all tv antennas are the same.
IMO what there should be is a universal formula for measuring an antennas performance instead of letting each manufacturer pull some number out of the sky. Not sure how this could be done though.
Well they tried leading up to the transition. The color system.

Someone covered this already. It was to take into account obstacles, hills, mountains, elevation changes. This was tied to AntennaWeb.

Several things failed.

1) Antenna Web was way to conservative. Some speculated this was done to sell bigger antennas. I disagree. Most people found they had to put an imaginary 100 ft antenna to just see what was probably possible at 20 to 30 ft. How many thousands didn't know this that tried to use it that gave up right there not seeing that many signals?

2) The antenna manufactures didn't comply as well as they should have complied. And even companies like Winegard soon built their own systems to find the correct antenna.

But the idea originally as go to AntennaWeb, then you could go online or to the store and buy the right antenna. It failed due a lack of common sense, any brains at all in my opinion, corporate ineptness and just ************ poor planning, cooperation and compliance.

So it was tried, failed.

Mileage was reinstated if it ever died, and we say 100 mile pieces of crap sold on E-Bay.
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Old 09-28-2009, 11:51 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Well somehow this thread went from being about how beam width is just as or more important than raw gain figures to antennas advertised based on mileage. Based solely on the replies I am not sure anyone got my point about not just considering gain as the determination of antenna reception, much less mileage which is a totally bogus measure of an antenna.

It really should be two threads, as I had planned a thread on antenna mileage claims.

Should I go ahead with my mileage thread then move the mileage comments to that thread?
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Old 09-29-2009, 12:45 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Default mileage versus gain !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piggie View Post

My appreciation to Ken Nist at HDTVPrimer.com for the use of his images.

Gain is obviously a major factor in antenna performance, and the mileage rating is just a poor reference at best for the non-antenna savvy consumer to have some type of indicator, and to possibly attempt to pick a somewhat proper antenna for their location.

Granted it is not the best system for choosing a proper antenna on a technical level, but the minute you start talking dB, gain, rejection, beam width etc. in front of the average consumer, you can just see the confusion start to take them over and they quickly realize that they are at the mercy of someone else when selecting a proper antenna for their location.

In my area of the country in the mountainous region of southwest Virginia, we deal with reception issues from viewers quite regularly. We have a very good area in which to test antenna theory, especially in regards to Digital reception and the multi-path problem. We broadcast to our city of license, which is essentially a big old soup bowl with mountain ranges on virtually every side.

The transmitter is on a 4000 foot mountain, and I can literally look down on a large portion of our main city of license and it is easy to see why this area has all of the reception issues that it does. This would have been an ideal area to test and install a Distributed Transmission Network, but everyone in this area had already committed to Full Power operations, and the FCC waited way to long to approve the concept for it to be useful in the DTV transition.

Rear and side rejection to me are the most important issues for this area, and a narrow beam width seems to also be desirable. We are also a LowV/HighV/UHf market, with one of them being trips favorite PBS station, which adds several more levels of complexity in itself. On top of that, not all of the transmitters are located in the same direction. It almost seems as if you need a dedicated mini antenna farm in this area to receive all of the stations reliably.

The best antennas we have tried, and they are used in our signal strength field tests for viewers are the Clear Stream C series antennas. They have decent rejection, and seem to work in high echo areas where other designs don't work as well or at all. I went to one viewers home who had just erected a brand new fringe area VHF/UHF antenna, brand unknown with a 10 foot boom (100 MILE Antenna LOL ) . It was mounted on top of a two and a half story house at over 45 feet in elevation.

This house sits deep in a hollow with mountains on 3 sides, and the only channel it would receive was Trips favorite channel PBS on 3. The Rhode & Swartz DTV spectrum analyzer showed echos out to the end of the 80 microsecond scale. We used a Clear Stream C2 at 20 feet for the first test, and all of the signals from the 4000 foot transmitter site showed up at receivable levels except for channel 3, when the 10 foot boom combo only received the channel 3 signal.

I have proven the performance to myself of the Clear Stream C series antennas beyond a shadow of a doubt. This is just one of many stories from our last 5 to 6 weeks of field strength tests to see where all of the signals in this market are strong or weak since almost all of us have new antennas and transmitters and it also proved the performance of the C series antennas in my eyes.The C series of antennas work very well on UHF as Ghost Killers.

All of the numbers on a spec sheet are all needed for reference, but in the trenches is where the rubber meets the road, our should that be where the F connector meets the antenna?

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Old 09-29-2009, 01:05 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Antenna Web

[quote=Piggie;32258]Well they tried leading up to the transition. The color system.

Someone covered this already. It was to take into account obstacles, hills, mountains, elevation changes. This was tied to Antenna Web.

Several things failed.

1) Antenna Web was way to conservative.

It is also using a flawed database, and is inaccurate to boot. When I look up my address on Antenna Web, it does not even list our station as being receivable at my address, even though I have a LOS to the transmitter when standing on my roof. If I use my zip code only it shows up, but when I drill down to the exact address, it is totally wrong. I quit using it several years ago when I found out how inaccurate it really is.
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