NeedfreeTV

Trip

I doubt there's such a thing as "too much antenna."

The Canadian stations on your list are currently only in analog, and many of them may not survive Canada's digital transition in August of 2011. The ones that are closest to you are at low power levels, while the ones further away are probably not strong enough to overload you.

What I would do in your case is try the antenna without the pre-amplifier and add it only if you find you need it for reliable reception. I doubt the antenna on its own would cause you overload problems, but the pre-amp could certainly do it.

I'll leave the particulars to the antenna experts, who should be along soon enough.

- Trip

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Comments are my own and not that of my employer or anyone else.

Eureka

Unless you just have to have CIII-TV ch 6, you really don't need an all-channel antenna. A smaller, VHF-HI + UHF model would work just as well. And the shorter elements are much less likely to suffer from metal fatigue or drooping/bending from large birds or ice storms. The Winegard HD769x series is a good example.

Definitely try an antenna w/o an amp, first.

Don_M

Trip's advice is pretty much on target. "Too much antenna" can happen, but not at that location. An 8200 should keep you happy for years.

My own hunch is that the pre-amp will be necessary given the tower's height. The downlead run is probably at least 60 feet long, and maybe much more. The longer the cable, the more significant the signal loss, particularly on higher UHF channels. Given the distance and the number of drops involved here, a distribution amp by itself won't cut it -- the signals need a boost right at the antenna.

The AP-8700 is probably the best pre-amp for this application.

When designing the distribution system, I'd suggest installing the distribution amp downstream of the first splitter. Staggering the amplifiers should preclude both amplifier overload and tuner overload anywhere in the system. The AP-8700 has sufficient gain to overcome losses from the long cable downlead plus a four-way splitter. Three of this splitter's outputs may be used for initial TV/FM drops, leaving one output for the rest of the system.

From that point, you have two choices for system design:

• Connecting this output to a good, low-noise distribution amp such as the Winegard HDA-200, which has enough gain for the next five or six drops, with a second distribution amp, a lower-gain HDA-100, powering the remaining drops.

• Connecting the output to a single distribution amp such as a Channel Master 3418, which has eight built-in connectors as well as a very low noise figure. You would need to split one of the eight outputs for use at two drops, which can be practical as long as these two cables are the shortest ones in the system.

NeedfreeTV

Hey guys,

I can't thank you guys enough. I've talked to a few other places and only heard the basic "generally" type answers. This is some really really good info on here. I've already bought the antenna and pre-amp while I was at the store which is 2 hours away. They are the best place around to get towers from, and that is why I stopped in. They are waiting for me to call back to order the tower (I couldn't take it with me the day I was there.....had the minivan). And it just so happens that we are ordering two towers from them for work, so I can have them put it on one delivery. I was waiting to see if the 8200U was too big before I ordered, because I would have had them ship a different antenna with the towers. Since the 8200 seems to be a good choice, I'm going to call them tonight and get the towers on order. I know the 8200 is HUGE, and the 7698 would probably be fine too, but besides the possibility of birds/ice, is there any other downfall of the 8200? The tower will have the built in rotor "bearing" tube to protect the rotor from twisting.

Anyways, back on track........I was planning on the 8700 on the tower. From the antenna to the first splitter location in the house should be about 45 feet max. From there, it gets confusing. I know I'll need a distribution amp, if not two or three. It's hard to describe how the house is laid out.

Would it be OK if I drew up a quick schematic of my house to show you guys where the coax connections are in the walls? I can take measurements tonight to make a nice "map" of all of it.

Thanks guys!! You definitely know your stuff!!

Don_M

You can if you like... but beyond a certain point, nothing beats being able to stand there and look at it in person. Most people we advise have one, two or three wall plates, not 12. Luckily, it's not difficult to put together a good distribution system by following these rules of thumb:

• With both pre-amps and distribution amps, the ideal system roughly balances amplifier gains with system losses. As you may know, both are measured in decibels -- a logarithmic scale, but one allowing for the use of simple addition and subtraction to determine how much amplifier gain will be needed. You want system losses to come within +/- 2 dB of the gain of the amp that powers signals in that part of the system.

• Between each amp, figure that each splitter output represents a 3.5-dB signal loss.

• Between amps and splitters, and also between every splitter port and wall plate, assume that each 20 feet of RG-6 cable equals 1 dB of signal loss, 40 feet of cable is 2 dB, etc.

That's basically how the AP-8700's gain is just about perfect for the downlead and first splitter: 45 feet of cable = 2 db, plus four splitter outputs times 3.5 dB = 14 dB. The total is 16 dB, which is just shy of the 8700's UHF gain. (VHF cable losses are significantly lower, so the pre-amp's lower VHF gain is nothing to worry about.) This is ideal as long as none of the cables attached to the splitter would be longer than roughly 50 feet. The same principles hold true for splitters and cables located beyond each additional distribution amp as well.

More considerations:

• It's far too easy to underestimate the length of cable needed for a given run. Here's a personal example: I have antennas in the attic, about 25 feet away (in a straight line) from our only HDTV in the basement. By the time I'd snaked the downlead through closets and walls, around corners and duct work and under a staircase, the cable was 55 feet long. Within-the-inch accuracy isn't necessary, but you will need fairly good numbers to figure cable losses throughout the system.

• Get a 500- or 1000-foot box or reel of RG-6 coax. You're going to need it to do custom cable lengths in a system that extensive.

• Before you start the actual work, practice compressing F-connectors onto cable ends until you're completely comfortable doing it. Poor cable connectors are the Achilles heel of most DIY signal distribution systems. Shorts or poor electrical connections at a crucial point (such as at either end of the downlead cable) will kill off signals in large portions of (or everywhere in) the system. Get each F-connector done right the first time, and the system you build is likely to remain reliable as long as the house is still standing.

Are you dealing with Solid Signal? IIRC, they're in Novi, which looks to be just about two hours from your town. It's a good company, and their net-of-shipping prices are the best available anywhere.

Piggie

Yes, the coax map would be a great idea. It would then be possible to actually engineer your distribution system and not just guess.
Also include an FMFool.com plot for your house.

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I have one suggestion not covered here, more of a change.

I would use a Winegard HDP-269 amp on the mast. Three reasons.

1) You want FM and with the 8700 you are paying for an FM trap you will be turning off.

2) You are paying for more gain than you need on the mast with a 8700

3) The HDP-269 has more dynamic range than the 8700 for overload.

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To highlight what led me to this.

First in order to split 12 ways in the house you would need so much gain on the mast, you would then have too much gain at the mast leading to overload. There is a some what of an inverse correlation between gain and dynamic range (overload potential). The more gain an amp has the less dynamic range, or the easier it is to overload.

Now we haven't seen an FMFool plot for your house but lets guess there is significant FM signals in your area.

A HDP-269 will put out 12 db of gain. 60 ft of RG6 cable inside is at worst case 3 db being conservative. If the distribution amp is very close to some of the receivers, then after a 4 way splitter you would have you would still have a little better than a db left, that could drive 10 ft of coax. Or if it goes in a distribution amp it would hit the second amp at near unity gain, which is critical in figuring cascaded amp distribution systems.

Other choices where it goes inside are two 2-way splitters. If say one TV was 20 ft away, it gets the first split which then has 3 db more gain, and a receiver very close and the indoor distribution amp gets the double split.

If there is more than 60 ft of cable or any set is more than 10 ft from an initial 4-way splitter the HDP-269 would run out of power.

The complete schematic would be the best just spouting possibilities.

That all said the 8700 should not overload per the TVFool plot. It just might be more amp than needed, again depending on the exact schematic.

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cowboyup4christ

OK heres it my two cents for UHf 91-xg from antenna direct, VHf Wineguard YA1713 then place the Channel master titan 7777 premap to combine the two this with the channel master programmable rotator should give you the best performance bar none, of course this is my opinion from many installs of many antennas

Don_M

Not really. I did an FMFool report @ 30 feet for the ZIP code and didn't bring it up because:

• CBEG is the only strong FM station in the general direction of any desired TV signals. It might cause harmonics issues with a channel 8 signal, but there aren't any channel 8 stations to worry about. Besides, CBEG's 1,800-watt ERP isn't exactly screaming hot.

• None of the other five strong FM stations is within 65 degrees of desired TV signals; most are much further away than that.

Piggie

great!

A btw that probably turn on EV more than I but the HDP-269 makes a great FM broadcast distrubution amp if you have several receiver drops and long runs. Mine is a total of 100 ft from the antenna through 2 two way splitters. FM is only about 2 db loss per 100 ft, but I use RG59 for FM, using an amp, then 7 db or so in splitters, I about neutralize the small gain of a the amp with a modest distribution system.

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The more I understand, the less I know.