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  1. #1

    Question Best Roof Antenna for Hi VHF and UHF Recomendation

    I am new to setting up OTA TV and need your knowledge & advise.

    Channels most interested in (7-50): PBS, NBC, Fox, CBS, ABC. Channels are Hi VHF and UHF (do not need low VHF). Only need 1 TV setup for OTA. About 50 feet of cable from roof antenna to TV. There is a hill between TV towers and house.

    30' TVF: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...5b94522b6dd886

    Just to see 50' TVF: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...5b9488e4f4a354

    Looks like the direction between 45-47 magnetic has the majority of channels of interest. So am I correct to assume a good UHF/Hi VHF directional antenna is needed.

    I would like to get the best highest quality antenna. Form some research, these models get good reviews.
    1) Winegard HD8200U (Yagi, Hi VHF/UHF, Gain Hi VHF 12.6, UHF 14.2)

    2) Channel Master CM4228HD (Bowtie, Hi VHF/UHF, Gain Hi VHF ___, UHF 12)

    I was leaning toward the Winegard HD8200U. What do you think about these antenna's? Which Antenna and setup will you recommend?

    Your help appreciated,

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  2. #2

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    Never buy an antenna based on reviews since they're most frequently written by people who are 1) lucky 2) unlucky, or 3) clueless. Usually, it's a combination of two of those.

    The "best" antenna is the one that works in YOUR location and YOUR circumstances, no more or no less.

    You don't need to deal the 8200's aircraft-carrier size. There's nothing unique on low-VHF and as you said, you "do not need low VHF". Scratch it from your list. The 4228, maybe..

    The hill upon which you are on the back side of is your enemy. If it's covered with trees that you can't clear, your situation will be far more severe than your plot suggests. You might snap a photo of the hill in the direction of downtown Portland from the proposed instal site and post that. Also, try to estimate how high the peak of the hill is above the antenna site and also estimate the angle of elevation from the antenna site to the visual horizon in that direction. That will give info not obtainable from your plot.
    Last edited by ProjectSHO89; 02-09-2014 at 02:45 PM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProjectSHO89 View Post
    Never buy an antenna based on reviews since they're most frequently written by people who are 1) lucky 2) unlucky, or 3) clueless. Usually, it's a combination of two of those.
    Or, the reviewer works for the antenna company who manufactured the antenna he's reviewing.

  4. #4
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    If you don't need low VHF why would you be thinking about a HD8200U. The Winegard HD7698P would be a better choice for high VHF, and UHF. The Channel Master CM4228HD is a very good UHF antenna, but would not be my choice in an area where 2Edge high VHF signals are needed.

  5. #5

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    The hill is approx 1000 feet to peak. The hill angle guess is 25-30 degrees.
    Last edited by DTV_1; 02-09-2014 at 03:25 PM.

  6. #6

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    The HD8200U is more weather proof and has higher quality construction. It has longer reach 100 miles.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron62 View Post
    Or, the reviewer works for the antenna company who manufactured the antenna he's reviewing.
    For good reviews, sure. For bad reviews, competitors or their fan boys.

    I figure most are pretty clueless since there's been a generation or two that have grown up without experiencing antennas.
    Last edited by ProjectSHO89; 02-09-2014 at 05:52 PM.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by DTV_1 View Post
    The HD8200U is more weather proof and has higher quality construction. It has longer reach 100 miles.
    Nonsense. Antennas don't "reach" anywhere. "ileage ratings are pretty much a fantasy wild-a$$ed guess from the marketing departments. The only difference between the 8200 and the 7698 is that the 8200 has the low-VHF elements that you don't need.

    The hill is approx 1000 feet to peak. The hill angle guess is 25-30 degrees.
    If it's 1000' uphill from your location at a 25-30 degrees, your best bet is to call the cable or, unless obstructed to the southeast, a satellite company. You're so far below the diffracting peak that for UHF that you'll likely never see any of the UHF stations reliably. The signals would be well over your head.

  9. #9

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    The best antenna for VHF and UHF is two separate antennas combined with a UVSJ (UHF/VHF signal joiner) or a pre-amp with distinct UHF and VHF inputs.

    Building one antenna to receive both UHF and VHF frequencies necessarily requires compromise of reception ability on both frequency bands, whereas separate antennas specifically designed for the narrower RF signal band ALWAYS are superior.

    The AntennasDirect 91-XG is widely considered the best UHF antenna around even though it still is designed for the old UHF spectrum of channels 14 through 69 (current UHF channels are 14-51) and the 91-XG is stronger at the top of this range. The original Channel Master 4228 is better than the new incarnation mainly due to poorly designed yoke on the newer model.

    For VHF high band the best antenna was the Funke PSP-1922, but they were discontinued 5 or more years ago and the AntennaCraft/Radio Shack Y10-7-13 or the now defunct AntennasDirect YA10-7-13 if you can find one are both excellent antennas for channels 7-13.

    You also might be surprised the learn that in addition to better general reception, buying two separate antennas and all the joining paraphernalia is usually cheaper that buying one of the 14 ft long multi-band behemoths.

  10. #10

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    The best antenna for VHF and UHF is two separate antennas combined with a UVSJ (UHF/VHF signal joiner) or a pre-amp with distinct UHF and VHF inputs.

    Building one antenna to receive both UHF and VHF frequencies necessarily requires compromise of reception ability on both frequency bands, whereas separate antennas specifically designed for the narrower RF signal band ALWAYS are superior.

    The AntennasDirect 91-XG is widely considered the best UHF antenna around even though it still is designed for the old UHF spectrum of channels 14 through 69 (current UHF channels are 14-51) and the 91-XG is stronger at the top of this range. The original Channel Master 4228 is better than the new incarnation mainly due to poorly designed yoke on the newer model.

    For VHF high band the best antenna was the Funke PSP-1922, but they were discontinued 5 or more years ago and the AntennaCraft/Radio Shack Y10-7-13 or the now defunct AntennasDirect YA10-7-13 if you can find one are both excellent antennas for channels 7-13.

    You also might be surprised the learn that in addition to better general reception, buying two separate antennas and all the joining paraphernalia is usually cheaper that buying one of the 14 ft long multi-band behemoths.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by DTV_1 View Post
    The HD8200U is more weather proof and has higher quality construction. It has longer reach 100 miles.
    DTV_1

    What you read in that ad was determined in a boardroom populated by promotors who want your money and NOT by engineers nor based on 'real-life results' in the field, nor in your neighborhood. Please listen to the other posts from experienced members because they are spot-on, so far.

    Jim
    Three of my popular blogs posts:

    A Halloween Treat For You
    http://www.dtvusaforum.com/content/2...t-For-You.html

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    LED Lamps Are Becoming Practical For Your Home
    http://www.dtvusaforum.com/blogs/fri...your-home.html

  12. #12

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    Thanks for all advise.

    2 Antennas solution seem worth trying: AntennasDirect 91XG (UHF) + AntennaCraft/Radio Shack Y10-7-13 (VHF). Join using UVSJ (UHF/VHF signal joiner). Would these 2 antenna's have to be mounted separately or could they be on the same pole? Would both antenna UHF and VHF signals travel without interference on the same coax after joiner?

    91XG has one of the highest gains ~16 dB and Y10-7-13's gain is around ~10 dB. Typically how much dB loss to expect with 50' coax RG6, UVSJ, connectors - what do you recommend to minimize dB loss in setup?

    Any other recommendations?
    Last edited by DTV_1; 02-09-2014 at 07:24 PM.

  13. #13

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    Question: I can see the lack of interest in transmitters to your south, but why don't you want KRCW on RF5 (low VHF)? It has a strong local news department, The CW, Antenna TV and This TV. Without that, you're down to 5 or 6 stations on a good day. Assuming you want KRCW, we're back to the 8200U, which honestly has more gain on high VHF than most dedicated VHF antennas -- and you want it pointed in the same direction as UHF, so that's no barrier. It also has more VHF gain than the 4228HD, including high VHF.

    I see there's a translator for KRCW way down at NM = 2.0, but that's not a lock by any means. Certainly not if the weather's bad.

    You do need a monster of an antenna to have a chance at getting KOIN CBS, which is down at noise margin (NM) = 1.1 .

    The fantasy of range figures has been discussed many times on these forums and elsewhere. To take an example from your own TV Fool report, you have a CBS station 96 miles away with NM = +2.9 . If it was at the right compass heading you would have a better chance to get that than KOIN CBS 18 miles away. Certainly better than KOXI 17 miles away at NM = -11.3 -- with any antenna. Doesn't even matter what range figure they slap on the label. It doesn't enter the calculation.

    Rick
    Last edited by Rickideemus; 02-09-2014 at 08:16 PM.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by DTV_1 View Post
    Join using UVSJ (UHF/VHF signal joiner). Would these 2 antenna's have to be mounted separately or could they be on the same pole?
    They can be on the same pole, if that's how you decide to go.

    Would both antenna UHF and VHF signals travel without interference on the same coax after joiner?
    Yes.

    Typically how much dB loss to expect with 50' coax RG6, UVSJ, connectors - what do you recommend to minimize dB loss in setup?
    With high quality quad shielded RG-6 it's about 4.3 dB loss per 100 feet, so you should lose less than 4 dB, including the UVSJ joiner.

    Rick
    Last edited by Rickideemus; 02-09-2014 at 08:05 PM.

  15. #15

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    Channel 5 KRCW would be good to have. Yes that is why I had preferred 8200U. Agree it does have better gain dB than most dedicated VHF antennas. Also agree that 8200U is a big antenna.

    I did not want to have to mess with rotating the antenna, that is why I wanted to point it in the direction of most channels possible (43-47 magnetic) and leave it there.

  16. #16

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    That KRCW signal on channel 5 is a 300 watt translator for their main 750,000 watt UHF channel 33 transmitter. That assumes that the channel 5 transmitter has even been built in the first place. They've had a CP since early 2011 for a digital flash-cut and they have never filed an LTC confirming completion. Since their parent company has been mired in a detour through bankruptcy court, it's pretty likely they're still analog (if even on the air at all).

    Reverse engineering your plot shows that you are at least 500' down-slope from the peak of the hill which is about 6/10ths of a mile away. Based on my experience, you are deeply, deeply shadowed and that any expectation of reliable reception would be based on a flawed forecast of available signal power due to TVFool's terrain averaging algorithm.

    Ultimately, it's up to you if you want to give it a shot. If you do, try the Antennacraft 10-element high VHF Yagi, the Antennas Direct 91XG, and an RCA TVPRAMP1 to combine and amplify the signals from each antenna. The antennas may be mounted either on a common or on separate masts depending on what is found to be needed.

    My speculation would be that channels 8, 10, & 12 are probably receivable but the UHF stations from Portland will not.
    Last edited by ProjectSHO89; 02-10-2014 at 05:03 AM.

  17. #17

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    Two Antennas options:
    Winegard VHF Antenna YA1713 or Antennacraft 10-element high VHF Yagi (VHF) - point to 45-47 magenetic.
    AntennasDirect 91XG (UHF) - point to 172-175 magenetic first and if not successful try 45-47 magenetic.

    One Antenna option: Winegard HD8200U.

    Leaning toward the 2 antenna option. One advantage of 2 antennas is the ability to point them in different directions.

    Parts List (please help complete):
    Mount for roof wall - two - J mount? Bolts for attaching to wall (on the roof).
    Masts two pipes - 8'.
    Combine using UVSJ (UHF/VHF signal joiner).
    Single coax RG6 quad shield, from joiner to TV (50').
    Clips for RG6 coax on wall. How do you attach coax to roof?
    Sealant for coax connectors
    Wire for grounding
    Ground clamp
    No pre amp.

    Was thinking to try the VHF antenna first and later add UHF.
    Last edited by DTV_1; 02-10-2014 at 02:01 PM.

  18. #18

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    Eh, you don't listen well, do you?

  19. #19

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    Appreciate everyone's suggestions. Some of great recommendations/ideas so far:
    Winegard HD8200U size was a concern.
    Winegard HD7698P (if low VHF is not of interest).
    4228 was a maybe.
    AntennasDirect 91-XG best UHF antenna
    AntennaCraft Y10-7-13 or AntennasDirect YA10-7-13 (VHF)
    Assuming you want KRCW, we're back to the 8200U.
    My location is challenging with hill.
    KRCW is low power station.
    Antennas Direct 91XG + Antennacraft 10-element high VHF Yagi

    I did want to pick one of these great suggestions.
    Maybe Winegard HD7698P should be - it is a good gain antenna (not as big as HD8200). I am concerned with 2 antennas setup: loss in signal with additional connectors, potential signal interference, visual home appeal.
    Last edited by DTV_1; 02-10-2014 at 11:26 PM.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by DTV_1 View Post
    Two Antennas options: ... One Antenna option:
    The two antenna options still cut out channel 5, correct? I pulled up a thread from June 2013 discussing KRCW-LP 5. One fellow thought the analog signal went off the air, but a few days later it was back. Their deadline for a flash cut doesn't come until Feb. of 2015. The fact that it may still be analog is almost a plus, in my opinion. It adds variety.

    If you're unsure, I would call the station. I would also ask if they have any viewers in your neck of the woods. Maybe you could scout the neighborhood for big Yagis. I pulled up channel listings for all positive NM stations in your TVFR, and there's no mention of The CW or Antenna TV until you get down to KRCW-DT at 2.0 .

    Rick

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