Also lost a few channels after the transition

#1
I am in Los Angeles (Hollywood) and like several others who have posted I have lost a few channels after the transition.

From reading the other posts I am still not clear: Is there a reason for this? Is there any hope that a future scan might recapture them?

I have a new television with a built-in digital turner and one of the UHF/VHF indoor antennas recommended by others on this site. Before the transition, I picked up digital signals from all the major networks in town (sometimes requiring a little fine tuning but not much).

After the transition, I lost channels 11.1 (KTTV Fox) and 13.1 (KCOP).
According to the government's DTV reception map, I should should get strong signals from these stations and more. No matter how many times I've tried to rescan or change the position of the antenna, I cannot seem to get these channels to reappear.

Why might this be? Why would stations be sending out weaker signals after the official transition rather than before? I expected to get more channels not fewer. This seems illogical. :confused:

Is there any hope that this might change in the near future or are the channels broadcast and their strength set as of June 13th?
 

bicker

DTVUSA Member
#2
Why might this be? Why would stations be sending out weaker signals after the official transition rather than before?
It is a bit more complex than this, but essentially, some stations made choices that resulted in weaker signals because it will save them money.

Now for the more detailed answer:

The vast majority of channels were broadcasting on UHF prior to June 12. UHF channels require a couple of orders of magnitude more power to transmit over the same distance as VHF channels require. A UHF channel broadcasting at 1000 kW ERP reaches just about as far as a VHF channel broadcasting at 30 kW ERP. So many channels elected to move back to their old VHF channel, once they turned off their analog signals, to reduce their electricity bill by 97%.

The problem with that is that digital signals are subject to a lot more interference on VHF, and are generally less reliable. Furthermore, the FCC was very conservative in authorizing higher power allocations on VHF, to try to keep co-channel interference to a minimum.

Is there any hope that this might change in the near future or are the channels broadcast and their strength set as of June 13th?
There is hope. The FCC is already working with some of the channels that made this bone-headed decision to go back to VHF, to see if they grant them a little bit more power or otherwise authorize some other construction that will alleviate the problem a bit.

However, personally, I think those channels should admit they were wrong, and file for a permit to move back to UHF, before all the slots available are issued to other broadcasters.
 
#3
Actually Bicker is wrong

Most channels - 2 - 13 was VHF

VHF is very easy to pick up, but changes in frequency as it goes higher in range.

VHF TELEVISION FREQUENCIES

BAND CH # FREQUENCY BAND CH # FREQUENCY

VHF LOW 02 54-60 Mhz VHF HIGH 07 174-180 Mhz

VHF LOW 03 60-66 Mhz VHF HIGH 08 180-186 Mhz

VHF LOW 04 66-72 Mhz VHF HIGH 09 186-192 Mhz

VHF LOW 05 76-82 Mhz VHF HIGH 10 192-198 Mhz

VHF LOW 06 82-88 Mhz VHF HIGH 11 198-204 Mhz

VHF HIGH 12 204-210 Mhz

VHF HIGH 13 210-216 Mhz

UHF is line of sight and usually requires a outside antenna and also a televison aerial rotor because you have to have your antenna pointed in the right direction to receive it properly.
 
#4
Channel 2 - 6 were the easiest to receive because they were the lowest in frequency.

More than likely, you will need a UHF antenna to continue to receive all the local television stations with a antenna.
 

bicker

DTVUSA Member
#5
Welcome to DTVUSA.

I'm not sure where you got your impressions, but unfortunately you're incorrect. Most of the digital channel frequency changes last Friday were from UHF to VHF.

Again, I'm sorry, but you're mistaken.
 
#7
Thanks Mr. Know it All, but I already have a UHF antenna. My antenna is designed for both UHF/VHF. Remember, I was receiving all the local digital channels with few problems until Saturday. So, what's the variable? My equipment hasn't changed, so it must be the way the channels are broadcast. So bicker's explanation seems to make sense.
And thank you HTNut, your map confirms what I have found on other sites. I should be receiving a strong, easy to capture signal from all the local channels and more (Even with the missing stations I get 45-50 OTA channels). The government site (DTV.gov) has a helpful map that will even show the direction the signals are transmitted from to my address. All the local stations in my area come from the same direction.
That lends even more weight to bicker's hypothesis. If all the local channels are transmitting from the same direction and only two channels vanished after the transition, two channels owned and operated by the same affiliate, it must have something to do with the strength of their signals.
I can only hope that the problem is widespread enough that the local affiliate will feel obligated to do something about it.
How about it readers? Anyone else in L.A. who's lost KTTV and KCOP after the transition?
 
#8
How about it readers? Anyone else in L.A. who's lost KTTV and KCOP after the transition?
Yep, I lost both KTTV and KCOP. I had my converter box and a UHF/VHF antenna for months now and I was receiving both channels without a problem until the transition on Friday. I am still getting all of the channels I had before and these are the only 2 that disappeared. I'm in Glendale.
 

Piggie

Super Moderator
#9
After the transition, I lost channels 11.1 (KTTV Fox) and 13.1 (KCOP).
According to the government's DTV reception map, I should should get strong signals from these stations and more.
Is there any hope that this might change in the near future or are the channels broadcast and their strength set as of June 13th?
This is what I called the "Hidden Transition". People that thought they were digital ready got a rude surprise Friday when stations that temporarily digital on UHF cut back to their old VHF channel on June 12th for the permanent digital channel.

KTTV went from 1000 KW on UHF CH66 to thinking 12 or so was enough on VHF. Doesn't work that way. They have applied for 112 KW which should match their old UHF range then some back on Ch11. When they get approved I bet they will try and up the power ASAP.

KCOP went from 371 KW on UHF Ch65 to thinking 12 KW on a temp auxilary tower was enough but have been granted a construction permit back to their main tower at 120 KW.

Both stations were forced to move of channels in the 60's that are no longer TV channels after Friday.

You will have to contact the station to find when they will be at full post transition power. And it appears KTTV has yet to get FCC approval where KCOP does have approval to construct.
 

Piggie

Super Moderator
#10
A UHF channel broadcasting at 1000 kW ERP reaches just about as far as a VHF channel broadcasting at 30 kW ERP. So many channels elected to move back to their old VHF channel, once they turned off their analog signals, to reduce their electricity bill by 97%.
Most now agree that 40 KW is a minimum VHF power, but closer to 50 to 60 KW is better.

Most VHF stations have an over all gain of about 5 db, so if they want 50 KW they need a TPO of about 16KW to get 50KW ERP

Most UHF stations are at least 8 to 10 db of system gain. This means they need a TPO of 100 to 160 KW to achieve 1000 KW ERP.

That gives a savings of a 85 to 92 % savings in power, still significant, including the fact that at UHF transmitters are not as efficient as at VHF.

However, personally, I think those channels should admit they were wrong, and file for a permit to move back to UHF, before all the slots available are issued to other broadcasters.
In many places such as Los Angeles there are no more UHF channels. NE corridor of the US is in the same boat. No more channels. They can't move back in some area's to their UHF.

The example above they can't move back to channels 65 and 66 as those are no longer even TV channels.
 
#11
Thanks for the info Piggie. Had I not been looking here I wouldn't know. I went to the KTTV site today looking for answers and they had nothing about the info you posted. Seems like they should be more upfront about what's happening because a lot of us are wondering why we can receive every channel except these 2. Again, thanks!
 

Piggie

Super Moderator
#12
UHF is line of sight and usually requires a outside antenna and also a television aerial rotor because you have to have your antenna pointed in the right direction to receive it properly.
Depends where you live. If you are fringe or suburban and require an external antenna for UHF, then you need one that is directional. But a lot of markets in the US have moved (long before transition) to a single area. Those lucky enough to live in those towns don't need rotors. They just point at the antenna farm.

Now if you are urban near the towers to near suburban, more than likely you have better luck indoor with UHF than VHF. UHF penetrates window openings in a structure better than VHF due to it's shorter wave length. Many people have noticed this when a station went VHF high band and they lost it using rabbit ears, where their rabbit ears loop did work on VHF before. In these cases the people need a VHF outdoor antenna more so than UHF.

There is not absolute on antennas, it just about comes down to a location by location process.

More than likely, you will need a UHF antenna to continue to receive all the local television stations with a antenna.
No, the stations the OP lost were stations that moved from UHF to VHF. He need better VHF antenna maybe outside or wait until they can get permission and complete construction on those two stations raising their power.
 

Piggie

Super Moderator
#13
Thanks for the info Piggie. Had I not been looking here I wouldn't know. I went to the KTTV site today looking for answers and they had nothing about the info you posted. Seems like they should be more upfront about what's happening because a lot of us are wondering why we can receive every channel except these 2. Again, thanks!
Don't feel like the Lone Ranger. It's happening all over the US and the stations are saying very little about it. One would think they would talk about it.

Falcon_77 over on the AVS forum has been calling it the "Hidden Transition". because it was digital to digital move and not required by the FCC to announce it to the public.

It is the same thing is why didn't TV stations be more vocal to tell viewers years ago they were already digital. Not that June 12th was a drop dead date. It led many to believe they had to wait till the transition to pick up digital. Where in fact June 12th was the last day of analog, not the first day of digital.
 

bicker

DTVUSA Member
#15
WHDH 7.1 on VHF 7 in Boston has gotten an emergency authorization from the FCC to reactivate their signal on UHF 42, due to how many complaints they have received from folks who have been unable to tune in their miserly-powered VHF signal. The FCC and Sunbeam are working together towards a more permanent solution. Maybe that bozo who owns that station will realize that he needs to use enough electricity so that his viewers actually can tune in his channel, in order for them to watch his programming. :)
 
#16
I actually contacted KTTV to let them know that although I am right in their line of sight, I have lost the signal for their station and its affiliate KCOP. I was told that they have heard from many people and they are working to boost their signals.
So, there appears to be some hope of regaining these channels. I will try rescanning in a few weeks. Anyone else in the area have anything to add?
 

1inxs

DTVUSA Member
#17
I actually contacted KTTV to let them know that although I am right in their line of sight, I have lost the signal for their station and its affiliate KCOP. I was told that they have heard from many people and they are working to boost their signals.
So, there appears to be some hope of regaining these channels. I will try rescanning in a few weeks. Anyone else in the area have anything to add?
Thanks! for taking the time to update us on the problem.
 

Piggie

Super Moderator
#18
I actually contacted KTTV to let them know that although I am right in their line of sight, I have lost the signal for their station and its affiliate KCOP. I was told that they have heard from many people and they are working to boost their signals.
So, there appears to be some hope of regaining these channels. I will try rescanning in a few weeks. Anyone else in the area have anything to add?
You did the right thing calling the station. They get negative feedback and enough of it they work harder. But remember in some thread around here I posted that KCOP has been authorized by the FCC to construct 120 KW, being one of the strongest high band VHFs in the country. Now KTTV is in a waiting game. They applied to the FCC for 115KW (also incredibly strong for VHF) but to date I have not seen their approval for their application.

The "Hidden Transition" has raised it's ugly head in many places, including Windows Media center.
 
#19
WHDH 7.1 on VHF 7 in Boston has gotten an emergency authorization from the FCC to reactivate their signal on UHF 42, due to how many complaints they have received from folks who have been unable to tune in their miserly-powered VHF signal. The FCC and Sunbeam are working together towards a more permanent solution. Maybe that bozo who owns that station will realize that he needs to use enough electricity so that his viewers actually can tune in his channel, in order for them to watch his programming. :)
if only it were just that station. Seems to be ALL of the UHF to VHF converts.
 

Piggie

Super Moderator
#20
WHDH 7.1 on VHF 7 in Boston was told by the FCC engineering specs (done by a private engineering group but to FCC standards) their VHF contour would extend 55 miles compared to the temp UHF that was only 50.

So it's good that both Sunbeam Television and the FCC are involved. It was a mutual mistake. The FCC lead station owners to believe they didnt need the power per contour maps. If you a 25KW going up to 50KW they expand their contour about 5 miles tops. But if you live in the outer half of that contour, you know 25 was not enough power. But not seeing that big a difference in range on the maps, they owners said fine, a 25 KW transmitter is cheaper to buy and run. What they forgot was they were not saturating the contour they had with enough signal.

It will be interesting to see the final result.

Here is their STA application if that interests anyone
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