Question: Attempting a second antenna

U

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#1
First off, my TV fool results,
TV Fool

I'm considering an attempt to pick up my closest out of market channels, approx 60miles away. I currently have a small antenna (ANT751) exterior mounted roughly 15ft in the air, co-located with my DirecTV dish. I receive my desired locals flawlessly. My curiosity sparked my interest at picking up the locals at 245deg.

Now, for the complicating factors. The antenna size is restricted (exterior), I'm probably limited to something the size of my current ANT751, or something like a CM2016 or similar. I live in a subdivision, so a fringe size antenna on a tower outside is probably not welcome by neighbors or my wife, lol. Also, 245deg would point the second antenna right into the side of my second story.

So, with all that, should I try an attic mount for a larger fringe size antenna? Think a smaller second antenna outside stands a chance? Would a single fringe size antenna in the attic be able to pull both locations? Specific recommendations?
 

MrPogi

Moderator, , Webmaster of Cache Free TV
Staff member
#2
1st question: why the size restriction? Your HOA or local government can't restrict size or number of antennas, per FCC OTARD regulations:
Installing Consumer-Owned Antennas and Satellite Dishes | FCC.gov
If it's the wife, that's something you'll have to negotiate...
(My wife doesn't care if I put 10 antennas on the roof, as long as we don't have to pay for TV anymore!)

That said, I assume you are going for channels 10, 36, and 39 RF. You will need an antenna that does VHF-hi as well as UHF, and your ant-751 probably won't do it, at least not reliably.

You will need a larger antenna, and it would have to be mounted higher. The attic location *may* work. If you want to do this, you will have to either put one larger antenna on the roof with a rotor, or keep your current antenna where it is and add a second larger antenna in the attic or on the 2nd story roof with an "a/b" selector switch to choose your antenna at the TV. You can't just join 2 antennas with a splitter / combiner, because it will re-radiate the signal from one antenna out the other, causing signal loss.

I'd personally go with the larger antenna on the 2nd story roof with a rotor. It's a lot of "extra" work and money for just 3+ channels, but if you're a sports fan and it gets you into another market where games aren't blacked out, it would be worth it. Plus, a rotor would also allow you to get other channels @ 152, 196, degrees, etc.

Get some advice from the rest of the DTVusa gang here, make a decision, and we'll help you through it.
 

n2rj

Moderator
Staff member
#3
They can limit height to 12' above the roofline. They can prevent you from installing a death ray on a 60' tower to receive TV for example but they can't prevent you from putting up an antenna 12' or less above your roof line.
 

MrPogi

Moderator, , Webmaster of Cache Free TV
Staff member
#4
They can limit height to 12' above the roofline. They can prevent you from installing a death ray on a 60' tower to receive TV for example but they can't prevent you from putting up an antenna 12' or less above your roof line.
Thanks for the clarification, n2jr. I knew there could be a height restriction, but I didn't remember what it was.
On the other hand, if your local government or HOA has no policy regarding height, it's not restricted by the FCC. However, the FAA might have something to say about it!
 

SWHouston

Moderator
Staff member
#7
I usually use the NM(db) as an indicator, if it goes below 0.0 I try to talk someone out of it. And, when you add the 2Edge to it, that really compounds the problems.
 
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SWHouston

Moderator
Staff member
#8
Let's see...let's just run some numbers on this...

Ant: Winegard HD7698P $170
Amp: AntennaCraft 10G212 $50
Coax: RG11 $100
Mount/Mast: Any $30
A/B: EagleAspin ABPUSH $10

Plus I'd get a little Signal Strength Meter $40
just to make sure I was right on the Towers.

That's (conservatively) about $400, those three channels worth that ?

(PS: That's a stationary mount toward your 245°, you DO NOT want to turn this rig toward your higher power locals ! ! )
 
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MrPogi

Moderator, , Webmaster of Cache Free TV
Staff member
#9
Let's see...let's just run some numbers on this...

Ant: Winegard HD7698P $170
Amp: AntennaCraft 10G212 $50
Coax: RG11 $100
Mount/Mast: Any $30
A/B: EagleAspin ABPUSH $10

Plus I'd get a little Signal Strength Meter $40
just to make sure I was right on the Towers.

That's (conservatively) about $400, those three channels worth that ?

(PS: That's a stationary mount toward your 245°, you DO NOT want to turn this rig toward your higher power locals ! ! )
And since he already has satellite and an antenna, I also concur: Too difficult and expensive for just 3 channels.
 

Fringe Reception

Super Moderator, Chief Content Editor
Staff member
#10
Regarding OTARD rules, since CB radio antennas are still FCC legal to install 20 feet above the highest pre-existing point on a roof which is usually a chimney, one way to gain LEGAL height over OTARD is to install a CB radio antenna and use the antenna AS the mast for a TV antenna. The 12 foot limit becomes 20 feet. Ten-four? :cool:

Jim
 

n2rj

Moderator
Staff member
#11
Thanks for the clarification, n2jr. I knew there could be a height restriction, but I didn't remember what it was.
On the other hand, if your local government or HOA has no policy regarding height, it's not restricted by the FCC. However, the FAA might have something to say about it!
Absolutely. But the HOA can make a reasonable request for aesthetics as long as it doesn't affect reception. For example, they can require the antenna to not be visible from the street as long as you can get a reliable signal with the antenna mounted as such. Also, buildings that are historic and registered as such can be overruled and antennas prohibited.

The FAA doesn't really care about anything less than 200' high unless you live within close proximity to an airport. Thus, a house mounted antenna really isn't on their radar unless the house plus antenna is more than 200'.
 

n2rj

Moderator
Staff member
#12
Regarding OTARD rules, since CB radio antennas are still FCC legal to install 20 feet above the highest pre-existing point on a roof which is usually a chimney, one way to gain LEGAL height over OTARD is to install a CB radio antenna and use the antenna AS the mast for a TV antenna. The 12 foot limit becomes 20 feet. Ten-four? :cool:

Jim
Sadly, CB, ham and other antennas are not covered under OTARD. OTARD only covers small satellite dishes (less than 1 meter in CONUS and Hawaii, no limit in Alaska), TV antennas and fixed wireless antennas for wireless internet. They can therefore make you take down your CB antenna of any height.

Ham antennas are covered under PRB-1 but PRB-1 doesn't apply to HOAs.
 
#13
Hello All, I'm the OP. I decided to register, since I got so many replies! Thanks for all who chimed in and helped.

My purpose for wanting to pull in these channels, is the Colts. Unfortunately they are starting to suck, and I'm concerned about future blackouts. I thought this might be a "easy" way to protect myself against that possibility, but it looks like that's not the case. I already have DirecTV & NFL Sunday Ticket, but that doesn't protect me from local black outs.

Thanks again for everyone's help!
 

Fringe Reception

Super Moderator, Chief Content Editor
Staff member
#14
:welcome: Justin, et al:

Regarding Televised Blackouts:

I know exactly what you want regarding being able to watch local sports coverage in spite of blackouts, but some people reading this thread may not know what blackouts are.

Back in the late 1970s the Seattle SuperSonics orange-ball games were carried on my local CBS affiliate ONLY if the Colusium Stadium was full and it usually was. But, if event tickets were still available, there was no local TV coverage via contractual arrangements between the team (and/or the NBA) and the local station.

Later in the season during playoffs games, local television coverage was not always available ... and during the championship games (that the Sonics won) there was no local coverage at all ... again a local blackout. Other than attending the games in person, the only way to see the (local) games was thru Cable TV at home or at a tavern.

That's the year I installed a channel-specific antenna above my roof to be able to watch all of those games, because they were all televised from a different transmitter located 75 miles away beyond the range of "blackout rules". My home was full of friends (and their friends) for every game.

I hope other readers here consider trying to overcome their own localized blackout rules by taking advantage of the flexibility of FREE over-the-air reception.

Jim

PS I'll root for your Denver Colts if you root for my Seattle Seahags.
 

SWHouston

Moderator
Staff member
#15
Greetings Justin, welcome to the Forum :welcome: (finally) :D

I'm not sure if I understood...
Are you saying that you're giving up on the second antenna ?
Please understand, that those numbers I posted earlier are for a first class installation. It's possible that you can try a lesser assembly, see how it works, and maybe add just enough to it to make the trip. So, there are alternatives !

Just as starters on that...
How important is that WTHI Channel 10 to you ?
 
#16
Jim In Seattle, The Denver Colts comment is pretty funny, since those are my two favorite teams... The Denver Broncos is why I have NFL Sunday Ticket.

SWHouston, I wouldn't say I'm giving up, but I know I'm not going to put up a tower and buy a $150+ massive antenna.

Do you guys think I have any chance of picking up those three channels (really don't care about NBC though), from an antenna in the attic? Also, I live pretty close to IND airport, but it is not in between me and the distant towers. Does that hinder me at all?

Map of my location (I live just SW of this intersection):
8300 West Mooresville Road, Indianapolis, IN - Google Maps

Broadcast towers of the channels I'm wanting to pick up are W, SW, in Terre Haute.
 
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dave73

DTVUSA Member
#17
If the games you're wanting to see are on CBS, then I wouldn't count on WLFI, as that station is receivable in most of the northern Indianapolis market (have a better chance getting WLFI than the Terre Haute stations), & could be part of the blackout rules too for any Indianapolis games. If you really want to try & get Terre Haute stations, then I'd recommend the Winegard HD7698p or Antennacraft HBU55. Since there are no stations broadcasting on VHF-LO (2-6) for over 100 miles, I wouldn't even bother with Winegard antennas HD7084p or HD8200U or any deep fringe all channel antenna in the Antenncraft lineup (too many to list, but was able to list Winegard, because their lineup is a lot leaner, but some discontinued antennas are still available).
 
#18
dave73, to be honest, I have searched but was unable to find a definitive map that shows NFL markets, or viewing areas based on team, or how far the blackouts would extend.
 

Fringe Reception

Super Moderator, Chief Content Editor
Staff member
#19
Jim In Seattle, The Denver Colts comment is pretty funny, since those are my two favorite teams... The Denver Broncos is why I have NFL Sunday Ticket.
I wondered if anyone would catch that - its part of a long running joke about the Seahawks. They seem to be a farm-team that prepares players to move away to any other team.

Also, I live pretty close to IND airport, but it is not in between me and the distant towers. Does that hinder me at all?
One of my antennas 'looks' thru the take-off/landing flight paths for SeaTac and Boeing Field. I receive three transmitters across Puget Sound ranging from 20 to 40 miles away and I have never seen pixelation or picture loss from any aircraft flying past. On the other hand, I receive another channel on a different antenna that breaks up almost every time a seaplane passes thru the data stream on its way to or from Lake Union. There's no way to predict if passing aircraft will be a problem.

Take a look at my photo albums here and you will find photos of a home-brew Yagi antenna I built to receive my local channels 9 and 11: it is specifically designed for channel 10 (to split the difference). I suspect you will need something similar or even longer (more elements) to capture your channel 10. Could you install something like this in your attic?

Jim
 
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