Attention TV Viewers: DTV signals are weaker than analog signals...

[MrPogi]

Sounds like a good argument for shared multiplexes if you ask me (coupled with MPEG4 compressions, and eventually ATSC 2.0).

Great argument, except that:
Most of the subchannels here are currently being used (almost zero unused spectrum)
and
Upgrading to MPEG4 and ATSC 2.0 mean not only do I need to buy new equipment, but so does every broadcaster - just a few short years after we all had to do just that!

 

[MrPogi]

They need to for 4G phone services

Because texting, Facebook, Twitter, and videos of cats are all so very important!

 

[ChrisDasilva]

Sounds like a good argument for shared multiplexes if you ask me (coupled with MPEG4 compressions, and eventually ATSC 2.0).

There is going to be an ATSC 2.0? That does sound interesting.

 

[nbound-au]

Great argument, except that:
Most of the subchannels here are currently being used (almost zero unused spectrum)
and
Upgrading to MPEG4 and ATSC 2.0 mean not only do I need to buy new equipment, but so does every broadcaster - just a few short years after we all had to do just that!

Its more of a long term thing Im proposing, I dont think ATSC 2 has even been finalised yet. MPEG 4 is part of the ATSC specifications, but I dont know the penetration of MPEG 4 capable sets in the US.

I see plenty of broadcasters when I search for antenna surveys for those on this forum which consist of a single channel, or only 1 subchannel.

 

[MrPogi]

Its more of a long term thing Im proposing, I dont think ATSC 2 has even been finalised yet. MPEG 4 is part of the ATSC specifications, but I dont know the penetration of MPEG 4 capable sets in the US.

I see plenty of broadcasters when I search for antenna surveys for those on this forum which consist of a single channel, or only 1 subchannel.

Not in my area. I have 2 channels with no subs.
There is not a lot of wasted spectrum:
http://www.dtvusaforum.com/content/525-empty-boxcars-fcc-s-scale-needs-calibration.html

 

[scandiskwindows9x]

Then you need to upgrade your antenna system, its not the broadcasters fault that your antenna system isnt powerful enough to receive whichever station is required.



NTSC was actually called Never The Same Colour within industry as a running joke, and it was for good reason.

ATSC in SD broadcast have the same color matrices and same color space and chroma space than NTSC because essentially the cameras that have the TV channels for SD was used for NTSC analogic and obviously they will not throw away those cameras so they use the cameras just vary that from analogic signals of those cameras they digitalize the image and send away through the ATSC SD channel, perhaps your TV have an different color reproduction so affects the ability to manage SD images and just can manage the HD image color space which is wider than an SD NTSC digitalized image.

 

[scandiskwindows9x]

Not in my area. I have 2 channels with no subs.
There is not a lot of wasted spectrum:
http://www.dtvusaforum.com/content/525-empty-boxcars-fcc-s-scale-needs-calibration.html

we have broadcasts in MPEG 4 H 264 and must say that images are just color and quality just ok althought that if use MPEG 4 codec also must use an AAC HE codec or SBR profile for audio and must say bye bye to the broadcast in dolby AC 3 because just can be used for AAC HE or SBR the Dolby Pulse codec which the legacy receivers and almost all receivers are unable of decoding so need get the audio output in PCM and would sacrify audio quality for an stupid transition from an MPEG2 AC3 to an MPEG 4 AAC HE or SBR codec, also must say that audio in AAC HE or SBR the audio quality is very bad, the voices specially male voices have not body or robustness and just heard a sound that is with excessives trebles and almost no bass and midranges.

 

[nbound-au]

ATSC in SD broadcast have the same color matrices and same color space and chroma space than NTSC because essentially the cameras that have the TV channels for SD was used for NTSC analogic and obviously they will not throw away those cameras so they use the cameras just vary that from analogic signals of those cameras they digitalize the image and send away through the ATSC SD channel, perhaps your TV have an different color reproduction so affects the ability to manage SD images and just can manage the HD image color space which is wider than an SD NTSC digitalized image.

The problems dont arise from how the colour information is sourced (the cameras). They arise from how the information is transmitted and decoded by the TV sets.

PAL TVs dont have hue control as it is automatically adjusted by the received signal.

More technical information
PAL - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
NTSC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
NTSC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Finally, these days, most programs are actually recorded in HD, and are downconverted to SD for broadcast on an SD channel. If in future they wish to play the same episode on a HD channel they already have it on file. (Of course, TV programs have always been filmed at the best quality available for various reasons)

 

[nbound-au]

we have broadcasts in MPEG 4 H 264 and must say that images are just color and quality just ok althought that if use MPEG 4 codec also must use an AAC HE codec or SBR profile for audio and must say bye bye to the broadcast in dolby AC 3 because just can be used for AAC HE or SBR the Dolby Pulse codec which the legacy receivers and almost all receivers are unable of decoding so need get the audio output in PCM and would sacrify audio quality for an stupid transition from an MPEG2 AC3 to an MPEG 4 AAC HE or SBR codec, also must say that audio in AAC HE or SBR the audio quality is very bad, the voices specially male voices have not body or robustness and just heard a sound that is with excessives trebles and almost no bass and midranges.

While im not familiar with the capabilities of receivers in your country, so cannot comment on the first part of your post. You will likely find that any audio quality issues with the channels are likely to do with poor bitrate being dedicated to the audio channels of the broadcast (or some other kind of problem caused by incorrect configuration). HE-AAC isnt a poor quality codec.

 

[scandiskwindows9x]

While im not familiar with the capabilities of receivers in your country, so cannot comment on the first part of your post. You will likely find that any audio quality issues with the channels are likely to do with poor bitrate being dedicated to the audio channels of the broadcast (or some other kind of problem caused by incorrect configuration). HE-AAC isnt a poor quality codec.

at least what we have are locally receivers imported to the US markets and also from what i heard the audio quality is very bad in the digital transmissions, we have not radio channels but even the audio of an TV show or a show that contains mixed music and voice content the quality of AAC SBR or AAC HE is very bad, in the bass and midranges audio quality, best said the absence of those frequencies, i thought that the audio in the DTV would be excellent as you heard in an radio broadcast or CD quality at least but just what i have heard from our broadcasts are bad audio quality , even if i heard video samples from channels as NBC or ABC the audio quality is superior than the audio quality that get from our broadcasts.

also i have an Video sample from an Australian Tv channel and the audio also is very bad or poor as in our broadcasts are so can tell that you can say a lot of things but have three videos captures of DVB-T HD-ATSC and ours ISDB-T locally.

by the way have an receiver Denon ad as speakers as main ones a Monitor audio BX2 and i do not think the speakers or the receiver be the responsible of that because also in the TV speakers just is bad the audio quality perceived from the broadcast.

 

[scandiskwindows9x]

The problems dont arise from how the colour information is sourced (the cameras). They arise from how the information is transmitted and decoded by the TV sets.

PAL TVs dont have hue control as it is automatically adjusted by the received signal.

More technical information
PAL - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
NTSC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
NTSC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Finally, these days, most programs are actually recorded in HD, and are downconverted to SD for broadcast on an SD channel. If in future they wish to play the same episode on a HD channel they already have it on file. (Of course, TV programs have always been filmed at the best quality available for various reasons)

if you read carefully my post i said that probably the television also can have a bad management of SD color space,

by the way the televisions have two color spaces the HD and SD in their processors and when is an SD signal they shift to SD processing mode and when is an HD input they switch to an HD color space processing, my television have that and everyone televisions have that in the service menu of the television can watch the parameters of both color profiles for SD and HD broadcasts also.

also about PAL i know when traveled to Argentina the TV that saw TV there had not tint or hue controls but the skin tones was of bad quality or looks like greenish the skin colors

 

[nbound-au]

also i have an Video sample from an Australian Tv channel and the audio also is very bad or poor as in our broadcasts are so can tell that you can say a lot of things but have three videos captures of DVB-T HD-ATSC and ours ISDB-T locally.

Can I see this sample of Australian TV, as I can tell you from experience that is not the case...

TV Audio in Australia is mainly MPEG1 Layer2 (aka. MP2), or Dolby AC-3 on some HD broadcasts. Video is entirely MPEG2

There are no H.264/AAC TV broadcasts in Australia at this time (except for the occasional 3DTV test transmission).

by the way have an receiver Denon ad as speakers as main ones a Monitor audio BX2 and i do not think the speakers or the receiver be the responsible of that because also in the TV speakers just is bad the audio quality perceived from the broadcast.

I never blamed your equipment, I blamed a poor bitrate being broadcast.

 

[ChrisDasilva]

Here is what I am thinking:
VHF should have remained analog.
UHF should have been made digital.
UHF stations should be limited to 1 megawatt of ERP.
VHF stations should be limited to 330 KW ERP.

 

[nbound-au]

if you read carefully my post i said that probably the television also can have a bad management of SD color space,

by the way the televisions have two color spaces the HD and SD in their processors and when is an SD signal they shift to SD processing mode and when is an HD input they switch to an HD color space processing, my television have that and everyone televisions have that in the service menu of the television can watch the parameters of both color profiles for SD and HD broadcasts also.

We weremt discussing ATSC, which is why I assumed you were making some other point.

also about PAL i know when traveled to Argentina the TV that saw TV there had not tint or hue controls but the skin tones was of bad quality or looks like greenish the skin colors

That isnt indicative of PAL TV here.

In fact if the hues were green (and purple), it was probably because the set was in NTSC mode [Most PAL TVs since mid 90s were cross compatible] and this was very often the problem when someone had "green picture".

Even going thru the low quality youtube uploads of Australian analog TV its quite obvious there is no hue problems.

 

[nbound-au]

Here is what I am thinking:
VHF should have remained analog.
UHF should have been made digital.
UHF stations should be limited to 1 megawatt of ERP.
VHF stations should be limited to 250 KW ERP.

Why on earth would you want to keep VHF analog? Other than for the tiny minority of people such as yourself who would prefer a handful of channels at possibly low quality?

 

[scandiskwindows9x]

Can I see this sample of Australian TV, as I can tell you from experience that is not the case...

TV Audio in Australia is mainly MPEG1 Layer2 (aka. MP2), or Dolby AC-3 on some HD broadcasts. Video is entirely MPEG2

There are no H.264/AAC TV broadcasts in Australia at this time (except for the occasional 3DTV test transmission).




man, the container is an MPEG 2 but inside is an MPEG 4 AVC LEVEL 4.0 also if want get any capture and install the mediainfo for analisys of the video sample.

the package is MPEG2 but what is inside is an MPEG4 AVC

here is what the mediainfo reports

from an video that is in this website a sample video

[TABLE]

[TD="width: 150"] [h=2]General[/h][/TD]

ID :

[TD="colspan: 3"]29 (0x1D)[/TD]

Complete name :

[TD="colspan: 3"]F:\04-15_09-31-44_TV3_.ts
[/TD]

Format :

[TD="colspan: 3"]MPEG-TS
[/TD]

File size :

[TD="colspan: 3"]168 MiB[/TD]

Duration :

[TD="colspan: 3"]2mn 14s[/TD]

Overall bit rate mode :

[TD="colspan: 3"]Variable[/TD]

Overall bit rate :

[TD="colspan: 3"]10.4 Mbps[/TD]

[/TABLE]

[TABLE]

[TD="width: 150"] [h=2]Video[/h][/TD]

ID :

[TD="colspan: 3"]450 (0x1C2)[/TD]

Menu ID :

[TD="colspan: 3"]1300 (0x514)[/TD]

Format :

[TD="colspan: 3"]AVC[/TD]

Format/Info :

[TD="colspan: 3"]Advanced Video Codec[/TD]

Format profile :

[TD="colspan: 3"]High@L4.0[/TD]

Format settings, CABAC :

[TD="colspan: 3"]Yes[/TD]

Format settings, ReFrames :

[TD="colspan: 3"]4 frames[/TD]

Codec ID :

[TD="colspan: 3"]27[/TD]

Duration :

[TD="colspan: 3"]2mn 14s[/TD]

Maximum bit rate :

[TD="colspan: 3"]10.3 Mbps[/TD]

Width :

[TD="colspan: 3"]1 920 pixels[/TD]

Height :

[TD="colspan: 3"]1 080 pixels[/TD]

Display aspect ratio :

[TD="colspan: 3"]16:9[/TD]

Frame rate :

[TD="colspan: 3"]25.000 fps[/TD]

Color space :

[TD="colspan: 3"]YUV[/TD]

Chroma subsampling :

[TD="colspan: 3"]4:2:0[/TD]

Bit depth :

[TD="colspan: 3"]8 bits[/TD]

Scan type :

[TD="colspan: 3"]Interlaced[/TD]

Scan order :

[TD="colspan: 3"]Top Field First[/TD]

Color primaries :

[TD="colspan: 3"]BT.709[/TD]

Transfer characteristics :

[TD="colspan: 3"]BT.709[/TD]

Matrix coefficients :

[TD="colspan: 3"]BT.709[/TD]

[/TABLE]

[TABLE]

[TD="width: 150"] [h=2]Audio[/h][/TD]

ID :

[TD="colspan: 3"]400 (0x190)[/TD]

Menu ID :

[TD="colspan: 3"]1300 (0x514)[/TD]

Format :

[TD="colspan: 3"]AAC[/TD]

Format/Info :

[TD="colspan: 3"]Advanced Audio Codec[/TD]

Format profile :

[TD="colspan: 3"]HE-AAC / LC[/TD]

Muxing mode :

[TD="colspan: 3"]LATM[/TD]

Codec ID :

[TD="colspan: 3"]17[/TD]

Duration :

[TD="colspan: 3"]2mn 14s[/TD]

Bit rate mode :

[TD="colspan: 3"]Variable[/TD]

Maximum bit rate :

[TD="colspan: 3"]144 Kbps[/TD]

Channel(s) :

[TD="colspan: 3"]2 channels[/TD]

Channel positions :

[TD="colspan: 3"]Front: L R[/TD]

Sampling rate :

[TD="colspan: 3"]48.0 KHz / 24.0 KHz[/TD]

Compression mode :

[TD="colspan: 3"]Lossy[/TD]

Delay relative to video :

[TD="colspan: 3"]-444ms[/TD]

Language :

[TD="colspan: 3"]English[/TD]

[/TABLE]

[TABLE]

[TD="width: 150"] [h=2]Menu[/h][/TD]

ID :

[TD="colspan: 3"]300 (0x12C)[/TD]

Menu ID :

[TD="colspan: 3"]1300 (0x514)[/TD]

Duration :

[TD="colspan: 3"]2mn 14s[/TD]

List :

[TD="colspan: 3"]450 (0x1C2) (AVC) / 400 (0x190) (AAC, English)[/TD]

Language :

[TD="colspan: 3"]/ English[/TD]

Maximum bit rate :

[TD="colspan: 3"]10660800[/TD]

[/TABLE]



also from here got the video samples

New Freeview | HD (DTT/DVB-T) Samples!


I never blamed your equipment, I blamed a poor bitrate being broadcast.

something to say thanks at least

 

[scandiskwindows9x]

by the way, this site

A nervous FCC announces game plan for new DTV day | Ars Technica

if you watch very carefully the post or publishing date was in 2009 year when even was not done the transition so lot of alarm by an older publication is not justified.

 

[ChrisDasilva]

Why on earth would you want to keep VHF analog? Other than for the tiny minority of people such as yourself who would prefer a handful of channels at possibly low quality?

To overcome the "digital cliff" which affects VHF more than UHF. My "thoughts" really only apply since the US uses ATSC instead of DVB-T. I would prefer the US to use DVB-T with all channels being digital.

In SD, an an analog picture has more warmth than digital.

 

[nbound-au]

man, the container is an MPEG 2 but inside is an MPEG 4 AVC LEVEL 4.0 also if want get any capture and install the mediainfo for analisys of the video sample.

the package is MPEG2 but what is inside is an MPEG4 AVC

here is what the mediainfo reports

from an video that is in this website a sample video

[TABLE="class: cms_table"]

General

ID :

[TD="colspan: 3"]29 (0x1D)[/TD]

Complete name :

[TD="colspan: 3"]F:\04-15_09-31-44_TV3_.ts[/TD]

Format :

[TD="colspan: 3"]MPEG-TS[/TD]

File size :

[TD="colspan: 3"]168 MiB[/TD]

Duration :

[TD="colspan: 3"]2mn 14s[/TD]

Overall bit rate mode :

[TD="colspan: 3"]Variable[/TD]

Overall bit rate :

[TD="colspan: 3"]10.4 Mbps[/TD]

[/TABLE]


[TABLE="class: cms_table"]

Video

ID :

[TD="colspan: 3"]450 (0x1C2)[/TD]

Menu ID :

[TD="colspan: 3"]1300 (0x514)[/TD]

Format :

[TD="colspan: 3"]AVC[/TD]

Format/Info :

[TD="colspan: 3"]Advanced Video Codec[/TD]

Format profile :

[TD="colspan: 3"]High@L4.0[/TD]

Format settings, CABAC :

[TD="colspan: 3"]Yes[/TD]

Format settings, ReFrames :

[TD="colspan: 3"]4 frames[/TD]

Codec ID :

[TD="colspan: 3"]27[/TD]

Duration :

[TD="colspan: 3"]2mn 14s[/TD]

Maximum bit rate :

[TD="colspan: 3"]10.3 Mbps[/TD]

Width :

[TD="colspan: 3"]1 920 pixels[/TD]

Height :

[TD="colspan: 3"]1 080 pixels[/TD]

Display aspect ratio :

[TD="colspan: 3"]16:9[/TD]

Frame rate :

[TD="colspan: 3"]25.000 fps[/TD]

Color space :

[TD="colspan: 3"]YUV[/TD]

Chroma subsampling :

[TD="colspan: 3"]4:2:0[/TD]

Bit depth :

[TD="colspan: 3"]8 bits[/TD]

Scan type :

[TD="colspan: 3"]Interlaced[/TD]

Scan order :

[TD="colspan: 3"]Top Field First[/TD]

Color primaries :

[TD="colspan: 3"]BT.709[/TD]

Transfer characteristics :

[TD="colspan: 3"]BT.709[/TD]

Matrix coefficients :

[TD="colspan: 3"]BT.709[/TD]

[/TABLE]


[TABLE="class: cms_table"]

Audio

ID :

[TD="colspan: 3"]400 (0x190)[/TD]

Menu ID :

[TD="colspan: 3"]1300 (0x514)[/TD]

Format :

[TD="colspan: 3"]AAC[/TD]

Format/Info :

[TD="colspan: 3"]Advanced Audio Codec[/TD]

Format profile :

[TD="colspan: 3"]HE-AAC / LC[/TD]

Muxing mode :

[TD="colspan: 3"]LATM[/TD]

Codec ID :

[TD="colspan: 3"]17[/TD]

Duration :

[TD="colspan: 3"]2mn 14s[/TD]

Bit rate mode :

[TD="colspan: 3"]Variable[/TD]

Maximum bit rate :

[TD="colspan: 3"]144 Kbps[/TD]

Channel(s) :

[TD="colspan: 3"]2 channels[/TD]

Channel positions :

[TD="colspan: 3"]Front: L R[/TD]

Sampling rate :

[TD="colspan: 3"]48.0 KHz / 24.0 KHz[/TD]

Compression mode :

[TD="colspan: 3"]Lossy[/TD]

Delay relative to video :

[TD="colspan: 3"]-444ms[/TD]

Language :

[TD="colspan: 3"]English[/TD]

[/TABLE]


[TABLE="class: cms_table"]

Menu

ID :

[TD="colspan: 3"]300 (0x12C)[/TD]

Menu ID :

[TD="colspan: 3"]1300 (0x514)[/TD]

Duration :

[TD="colspan: 3"]2mn 14s[/TD]

List :

[TD="colspan: 3"]450 (0x1C2) (AVC) / 400 (0x190) (AAC, English)[/TD]

Language :

[TD="colspan: 3"]/ English[/TD]

Maximum bit rate :

[TD="colspan: 3"]10660800[/TD]

[/TABLE]




also from here got the video samples

New Freeview | HD (DTT/DVB-T) Samples!

The link above are NZ DTV recordings, NZ does use MPEG4 DVB-T. I watched the recording of Cold Case (from TV3) on VLC and it sounded fine to me.

Australia does use the audio and video formats i mentioned in the previous post. A quick google will support my position (you can even find transport stream analyses).

 

[nbound-au]

To overcome the "digital cliff" which affects VHF more than UHF.

Neither is more affected than the other. Once the error rate hits a certain point the signal becomes unwatchable, this occurs whether the signal is VHF or UHF, the frequency of the station is only used to transport it, once it enters the tuner the information itself is separated, and it becomes a data stream for the TV to decode. Just like you were watching youtube or a DVD.

Your VHF stations are affected because your antenna isnt high enough gain or is in a poor location.

I have received 2edge VHF stations at 60+miles with perfect (lets say >99%) reliability. All it takes is the right gear, and that gear isnt anything commercial grade (Oh, and a meter is quite handy).

My "thoughts" really only apply if the US uses ATSC instead of DVB-T. I would prefer the US to use DVB-T with all channels being digital.

Well, we can only dream of such happy days :cheesy: