GETTING STARTED WITH OVER-THE-AIR TV - The FAQ's

#81
Only 300 watts over 40 miles will be swallowed up by noise. I would be surprised if the OP is even seeing these channels with the monster antenna.

VHF-LO is a bust for the most part with digital TV unless relatively close & with a LOT of power. It even sucked for analog unless someone was lucky enough to have no power lines nearby.
 

summerski

DTVUSA Member
#84
I appreciate this discussion and antenna recommendations. My "sail" survived 30-40 mph winds yesterday albeit the signal broke up a little but is solid with today's gusts at 10-20.

I'm sold on the hd antenna. The picture is much cleaner than with cable.

Maybe now I can afford to paint my house.....

Cheers,

Will
 
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summerski

DTVUSA Member
#85
Hello again.

All is going well regarding my CM3020 except I'm having trouble with CBS CH2.1. every time it gets a bit breezy, this is the only signal i seem to lose. Looking at TV Fool.....

TV Fool

I see another CBS station at 137* I believe this is CH22. With the CM pointed at 230ish, I'm not getting that signal at all.

If I were to invest in the 91XG and point it in the neighborhood of 137*, you reckon I'll get this CBS station? Or maybe a different UHF antenna?

Thanks,

Oh one more quick question, when the leaves come back this spring, am I going to have to mount my antenna on the top of the cell tower at the end of the road? :). Will the leaves affect my reception?

Cheers,

Will
 

Fringe Reception

Super Moderator, Chief Content Editor
Staff member
#86
Will,

Is it possible for you to try your existing antenna at different heights and perhaps at different locations? Even a change of 6-12 inches in height and/or a few feet to the left or right may be all it takes to stablize your CBS channel.

TV signals tend to travel (propegate) something like a stack of pancakes. The website below explains it well. Look at the 4th image: Siting the antenna

Jim
 

nbound-au

The Graveyard Shift
#87
TV signals tend to travel (propegate) something like a stack of pancakes.
Now Im gonna get hungry every time I get on someones roof... Thanks alot Jim! :yell::D:D

All is going well regarding my CM3020 except I'm having trouble with CBS CH2.1. every time it gets a bit breezy, this is the only signal i seem to lose.
If the antenna is moving in the wind chuck some staybars up on it. Antennas dont like being blown about very much.

If I were to invest in the 91XG and point it in the neighborhood of 137*, you reckon I'll get this CBS station? Or maybe a different UHF antenna?
Its a possibility, but theres a reasonable chance of co-channel interference with WXNY, not to mention the other stations would all take 3dB drop

Oh one more quick question, when the leaves come back this spring, am I going to have to mount my antenna on the top of the cell tower at the end of the road? :). Will the leaves affect my reception?
Leaves will affect your reception to some extent, they will affect UHF more than VHF. Follow Jims suggestion and see if you can locate the sweet spot on your current mast. Though if it is pure LOS as the TVFool suggests there probably isnt too much point.
 

summerski

DTVUSA Member
#88
Its a possibility, but theres a reasonable chance of co-channel interference with WXNY, not to mention the other stations would all take 3dB drop
Thanks for the replys. First off, my 3020 is at least 30' off the ground and mounted to an eve bracket and appers very sturdy. The wind doest appear to move it but it is big and certainly could be moving slightly. It's in a fixed position and impossible to move. (Well it would be a lot of hassle )

I really would like to add a 91XG BUT if this will cause an interference? (3dbdrop?) then Ill live w/o CBS on windy days.

If there are any other antenna combs, I'm all ears.

Would mounting the 91XG on the chimney still result in db3 drop? It's approx. 5' away from the CM3020 and a foot or two higher?

What if both the 3020 and 91XG were pointed towards NYC ?

All suggestions welcome.

Ultimately I'd like an antenna pointed towards Hartford, Ct and one towards NYC.

Tks,

Will
 

nbound-au

The Graveyard Shift
#89
The fact that there is already a CH22 station on the same heading as the main antenna would likely result in a station that is probably less reliable than your current CBS.

If the wind isnt moving the antenna itself, then the wind is affecting the signal by blowing leaves and creating dynamic multipathing. The easiest (relatively speaking) way to try and overcome this is a higher gain/tighter beamwidth antenna.

You wont be able to get the full complement of Hartford/New Haven stations due to some frequencies being used for the NYC market area (one of the downsides to having so many stations available)
 
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n2rj

Moderator
Staff member
#92
That's why I combine mine digitally. :)

Well, when my OTA setup was working. :(

Now it's getting warmer, so I'll be climbing the tower again. :)
 

nbound-au

The Graveyard Shift
#93
That's why I combine mine digitally. :)

Well, when my OTA setup was working. :(

Now it's getting warmer, so I'll be climbing the tower again. :)
Into a PC, with a backend (eg. MythTV) and distributed as data streams?
...
or
...
Using expensive commercial grade gear (channel processors, etc.)

:)
 

FOX TV

Contributor
#94
Thanks for the replys. First off, my 3020 is at least 30' off the ground and mounted to an eve bracket and appers very sturdy. The wind doest appear to move it but it is big and certainly could be moving slightly. It's in a fixed position and impossible to move. (Well it would be a lot of hassle )

I really would like to add a 91XG BUT if this will cause an interference? (3dbdrop?) then Ill live w/o CBS on windy days.

If there are any other antenna combs, I'm all ears.

Would mounting the 91XG on the chimney still result in db3 drop? It's approx. 5' away from the CM3020 and a foot or two higher?

What if both the 3020 and 91XG were pointed towards NYC ?

All suggestions welcome.

Ultimately I'd like an antenna pointed towards Hartford, Ct and one towards NYC.

Tks,

Will
One real big factor in break up during windy conditions is that the broadcast antenna is also effected by the wind, and it can move as much a foot of center in high winds, and this changes the radiation pattern briefly causing break ups. Now I am sure there will be those who disagree with this as the cause as there always are.

I will challenge them to tell me the last time they were at the foot of a broadcast tower that is only 200 feet tall with a 60 foot antenna top mounted on the tower on top of a 4,000 foot mountain in 60 MPH winds to witness this themselves. This happens to many broadcast antennas given that they are usually top mounted on the tower and average around 60 feet in height, and weigh in at around 8,000 to 10,000 lbs. They really do move around quite a bit at higher wind speeds. Lets now hear from the doubters as to this causing issues with reception as I am sure I will., but believe me, this really is an issue that I have seen first hand many many times.

Multiple antennas work best with an A/B switch, as combining them causes losses in the combiner, and if Broadcast antennas are located in different directions the A/B switch eliminates many other headaches associated with combiners, splitters, and the issue that many sets will not allow manual addition of channels unless it finds them in a channel scan.

By using an A/B switch, you can switch between the antennas that are pointed in different directions as the scan is taking place so a TV set that does not allow manual adding of channels can find all of the channels you want during the scan. Not all set have this limitation, but many of them do.
 
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Fringe Reception

Super Moderator, Chief Content Editor
Staff member
#95
One real big factor in break up during windy conditions is that the broadcast antenna is also effected by the wind, and it can move as much a foot of center in high winds, and this changes the radiation pattern briefly causing break ups.
Fox is spot-on. As a kid, my local CBS affiliate's tower had guard fences around its legs but the area directly under the tower was a paved parking area. During heavy windstorms it was fun to ride my bike under the tower and look up to see the top of the tower (base of the antenna) and watch the VHF-7 antenna waving in an oval orbit of at least 4 feet. I took friends to see it and I remember one kid who nearly lost his lunch.

Below is the same tall VHF antenna as it was being retired from service and it appears much bigger on the ground than it seemed to be when it was in the sky:

Jim



 
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nbound-au

The Graveyard Shift
#96
One real big factor in break up during windy conditions is that the broadcast antenna is also effected by the wind, and it can move as much a foot of center in high winds, and this changes the radiation pattern briefly causing break ups.
Yes definately, especially on large guyed masts.

To a smaller extent on lattice towers and less again on concrete.

Obviously the severity is a function of height, the taller the tower, the more it will sway.

The other issue is not necessarily towers/masts moving the transmitter itself, but sometimes the off-air link carrying the program stream between the playout centre (or feeder transmitter) and the transmitter can be affected by the same phenomenon.
 
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summerski

DTVUSA Member
#97
Ok. I think I'll stick to one antenna pointed towards NYC. Now my final question is....keep the CM 3020 (which struggles on breezy days probably due somewhat to its size) or upgrade to the 7695 or HBU-55? Or really splurge on the DB8e? Or give in to Aereo?

Thanks once again for everyone's help/ opinions. It's been a long strange trip maximizing my OTA experience.

Cheers,

Will
 
#98
All is going well regarding my CM3020 except I'm having trouble with CBS CH2.1. every time it gets a bit breezy, this is the only signal i seem to lose. Looking at TV Fool.....

TV Fool

I see another CBS station at 137* I believe this is CH22. With the CM pointed at 230ish, I'm not getting that signal at all.
Are you SURE?? This is a translator for the very same WCBS coming from RF 33. The channel on your TV would not be 22, it would be 2.1 and 2.2, just like the stronger signal from 230ish.

What might be happening is this: when your TV does a channel scan, it finds RF 22 first (it goes in numerical order) and assigns virtual 2.1 and 2.2 to RF 22. Later, when it finds RF 33, it rejects that signal, cause 2.1 and 2.2 are already taken. You wind up with a much weaker CBS that can float away on a breeze.

If you can manually delete RF 22 and substitute RF 33, then go for it! If your TV will only do an auto-scan, then you might have to put a reflector of some sort at 137ish, to block out 22 during a rescan.

That's my theory. and I'm stickin to it ... :flypig:

Rick
 
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FOX TV

Contributor
#99
DSC03683 2.JPG
Ok. I think I'll stick to one antenna pointed towards NYC. Now my final question is....keep the CM 3020 (which struggles on breezy days probably due somewhat to its size) or upgrade to the 7695 or HBU-55? Or really splurge on the DB8e? Or give in to Aereo?

Thanks once again for everyone's help/ opinions. It's been a long strange trip maximizing my OTA experience.

Cheers,

Will
Hello again, I have a suggestion for you, and a special offer. I have the perfect antenna for your situation that is attic mountable if that is preferable, and is much smaller than the antennas you mention above as alternatives. There are many factors that apply to break up on windy days, and some of them are beyond your control to eliminate. I am looking for a few users on here to test my new antenna design and give their opinion on its performance.

I went to the NASCAR TRUCK race in Rockingham N.C. this weekend and watched the NASCAR race from TEXAS on my antenna setting on top of my brothers van only 6 feet off the ground, and received the FOX affiliate from Myrtle Beach South Carolina with perfect reception. I also was able to receive all stations from Charlotte, Raleigh, and Chapel Hill N.C. at well over 100 miles away for the stations in Raleigh.

I would like to invite you to be one of the first forum users to test my antenna since I am looking for situations like this one to see how it performs in challenging situations like yours. If you are interested in this, please send me a private message for details. This antenna is in the PATENT PENDING stage, and I need more proof of performance testimonials for my marketing efforts. I would love to see my antenna solve a problem for you. This antenna will be designated as the DS-2. The official name of the antenna is the Data Stream DS-2, and my company name is "Data Stream Digital Antennas". Here is a link to my Facebook antenna page that was created just a week ago http://www.facebook.com/pages/Data-Stream-HDTV-digital-antennas/444532128962438
 
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Hello Summerski

At 45 miles, you should have access to virtually everything in NY and NJ using my antenna. I don't really see many wind issues with my antenna at home other than the ones we cannot control, and there are many of them beyond our control.

This starts with the link from the studio to the transmitter sites that use microwave to send their signal to the transmitter due to tower or microwave dish movement, along with the issues in the reply I posted about transmit antennas being effected by the wind. I posted a picture of a slot type UHF channel 20 antenna on the trailer it was delivered on just to give you an idea of just how big they really are. This antenna weighs in at 8,000 lbs, and is 60 feet long, and I assisted in its installation (On the ground that is !!!)

If the station is using a live satellite feed such as MY-TV or ME-TV or THIS-TV, the satellite dish used to receive the feed can also be effected by the wind causing wind breakup. This may not even be a problem on your end at all, as there are so many variables involved in how the transmitter receives the programming from the studio.

If I were to send you an antenna, and it was attic mounted, and you still have the problem, then it could come down to an issue on the stations end that they need to address. You may even try to call the station and talk to the engineer and ask them if they may have any wind related issues that they are aware of. Another hint is that this is only happening on a few channels, and not all of them. If this was an issue with wind movement of your antenna, foliage or other local issues with your antenna, it would likely effect all of your channels, and not just some of them.

I always advocate outdoor mounting for best results, but not everyone can mount one outside as it should be done. Higher is always better, but attic mounting may be one way to rule out wind issues with your situation. If you still see the issue with an attic mounted antenna, you will then know almost 100% that the problem is on the broadcasters end. You can also likely rule out any effects from foliage since most everything is still somewhat bare in your area now, as it is here, and I am around 700 miles south of you.

240.jpg
 
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