My dilemma, looking for a solution

Buckwheat

DTVUSA Jr. Member
#1
Hi all, I'm new here and really appreciate all the info . Though I wish I had found this site sooner.
I installed an antenna at my house and one at my cousin's house last week as we both cut the cable.
Antenna : HBU55
AMP : AntennaCraft 30dB 10G212
Rotor :Antennacraft Heavy Duty Rotator
New RG6 @-
My house : 48 ft. RG6 from amp 4 ft to ant.
Cousins house : 95 ft RG6 from amp 4 ft to ant.

My report : TV Fool
Cousins report : TV Fool

I get most all channels through all the red PLUS 28.3, 49.1,

Now comes his little problem area, he was receiving : 7.1 KGO perfectly, 2.1 KTVU and KRON on 25 K25HI mostly in the evenings, and now they are gone :huh:. YES he is in a poor area for reception, I'm wondering if a bowtie would be better or if I'll just be spinning my wheels.

Returning antenna is not an option as the boxes etc. are gone, since we were happy with reception at the time of installation.
 
#2
:welcome: to the forum, Buckwheat!

I get most all channels through all the red PLUS 28.3, 49.1,
That is really outstanding! We would've probably tried to set you up without the rotator. But now that it's working, I hope it provides years of trouble-free operation.

Now comes his little problem area, he was receiving : 7.1 KGO perfectly, 2.1 KTVU and KRON on 25 K25HI mostly in the evenings, and now they are gone :huh:. YES he is in a poor area for reception, I'm wondering if a bowtie would be better or if I'll just be spinning my wheels.
KGO isn't surprising. It's not like cable where you get all the stations you paid for, or else call customer service. Anything in negative NM (Noise Margin) territory is a bonus, and KGO is a 2 edge signal as well. That means it has to refract around two hills in your area to reach the antenna.

KTVU was a miracle. Only possibility might be a Yagi cut to size for that frequency -- and no guarantees in that direction. That's way beyond my expertise.

K25HI is a puzzler. That's an analog translator, so he has to be sure he selects analog on the remote, along with aiming the rotator. It's possible the translator went down for a spell. It will go down permanently when the FCC puts the final kibosh on analog sometime in 2015 -- unless they're licensed to switch. But it's a strong line-of-sight signal, so it normally should be A-OK.

Returning antenna is not an option as the boxes etc. are gone, since we were happy with reception at the time of installation.
In all honesty, in your cousin's situation I might have stayed with cable TV or satellite. Even a Y10-7-13 for KGO is only 9.4 dBi gain compared to 9.3 dBi on your HBU55. Your cousin might have to live with it cutting in and out.

I can't see a bowtie antenna helping any of those problem stations. Are there no ABC or Fox affiliates among all those translators "in the green"?

Rick
 
#3
wondering if a bowtie would be better or if I'll just be spinning my wheels./QUOTE]
KGO is on real channel 7 high VHF. Bow tie antennas are UHF antennas therefore would be the wrong choice to try to regain signal. K25HI is listed as an analog translator which will go extinct, or possibly has.
You have done so many things right that it is not possible for me to suggest an easy solution.
More antenna height, or different antenna location. A different amplifier. Lower noise, and less prone to over load problems.
While I have no simple solutions to offer. I would think that it should be possible to regain reception of KGO.
Steve
 

Buckwheat

DTVUSA Jr. Member
#4
Thanks for the replies, I'm going over there tomorrow and go through everything ( connections, test RG6. use larger hammer, maybe even move the antenna to another part of the roof.
 

Buckwheat

DTVUSA Jr. Member
#5
Update, rotator quit, put on a new one. Found 7.1 again, lost 2.2 and 4.1 added 5.1. His Vizio when it re scans, will not keep previous channels in memory.

Rickideemis,
Where can I get some info on reconfiguring a YAGI to get the lo VHF. I like doing things like that!
 
#6
Update, rotator quit, put on a new one.
Oh, maaannnnnn! Well, at least Spring is coming...

Found 7.1 again, lost 2.2 and 4.1 added 5.1. His Vizio when it re scans, will not keep previous channels in memory.
If there is no rescan+add function, it might be possible to add individual channels manually. Try entering the "real" channel number as stated in the TV Fool report, possibly with a .1 suffix. That's how it works on my TV ... it's not in the manual.

Where can I get some info on reconfiguring a YAGI to get the lo VHF. I like doing things like that!
Fringe Reception might have some ideas on that. Maybe he'll step in. You know KTVU is UHF, right? You go by the "Real" channel number, which is 44.

Rick
 
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Buckwheat

DTVUSA Jr. Member
#7
No (.) on his remote. I've tried to find any button on it that would give me the (.) to no avail.
Weather conditions have changed since putting up antenna , warm and sunny now compared to clouds and drizzle when I first put up. I understand that would also change reception?
 
#8
No (.) on his remote. I've tried to find any button on it that would give me the (.) to no avail.
Is this a digital TV? Made after 2007? Got a model number on that sucker? :huh:

Weather conditions have changed since putting up antenna , warm and sunny now compared to clouds and drizzle when I first put up. I understand that would also change reception?
Not much. Maybe a little. Main thing is Spring should be a little easier on the rotator.
 

KrissB

DTVUSA Member
#9
No (.) on his remote. I've tried to find any button on it that would give me the (.) to no avail.
Weather conditions have changed since putting up antenna , warm and sunny now compared to clouds and drizzle when I first put up. I understand that would also change reception?
My Vizio and my LG TV's both use - instead of .'s Typically to the right of the 0 (like so as far as the Vizio for button pattern to look for -->) Wide 0 -

I've been looking at that same Antenna. As far as weight, and assembly, what do you think about it? I will consider the rotor brand/model :p But I think any brand/model is cheaply made these days. I noticed an antenna tower that had a Rotor support plate to help with the rotor strain on bigger antennas. You could probably clamp something similar to help hold some of the strain, however, time will loosen every cheap clamp with the wind's help (go with some good U bolts if that's a thought for you)! :p

Also to note about Vizio, Partial scan will keep certain channels (not sure why, detecting some signal maybe?) but yea, mine loses critical channels too. I prefer the LG for that particular reason. If nothing else, at least the LG is a good reminder of what I have previously honed in on! The Vizio's will bring in a channel at 25% signal quality (for whatever that label is worth on a Vizio menu). You can check your TV's variation of signal in Menu>System>(Scroll down once you see Ex. Ch. Frequency 470000000 < Ch. 14. Below that is Signal Quality usually measured in the following on mine. 0, 25, 50, 75, 100. Vizio Tuners seem to be very good, just odd for using a rotor... :\

As far as the 4ft on the Antenna talk, do you mean only 4ft above ground, or a 4ft pole mounted on the roof?

I hope I somehow helped,
KrissB
 
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Fringe Reception

Super Moderator, Chief Content Editor
Staff member
#10
... Rickideemis,
Where can I get some info on reconfiguring a YAGI to get the lo VHF. I like doing things like that!
Buckwheat,

Ricki brought me back to this thread and I'm sorry to say I don't know of a way to add low VHF to a non-low VHF Yagi antenna. The mathematical engineering of multi-band antennas would cut down a small forest, if it was done on paper.

On the other hand ... you might 'convince' an existing Yagi antenna to collect more low RF signals if you changed the reflector specifically cut to the resonent length of the missing channel/frequency. It will be WIDE, like a 6-meter Ham radio antenna element.

You can run the math here, especially on the second link:

Martin E. Meserve - K7MEM - VHF/UHF Yagi Antenna Design and here: 4nec2 antenna modeler and optimizer

Good luck and please keep us posted.

Jim
 
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#11
Keep in mind when working with any add channel scan, partial scan, or manual channel entry you need to use real channel numbers off the TV fool report.
On adding low VHF the advice I've read involves building a Low band folded dipole, and a HLSJ to combine the signals. Keep in mind a dipole cut for channel 2 will be about 102 inches wide. 468/55mhz=8.5ft Channel 6 about 66 inches. This link will give you a good idea of sizes needed.Lo-VHF Folded Dipole incl. Ch6 & FM
You could add an antenna with low VHF capability like the Antennacraft Y5-2-6, or even the CS600.
 

Buckwheat

DTVUSA Jr. Member
#12
I've been looking at that same Antenna. As far as weight, and assembly, what do you think about it? I will consider the rotor brand/model :p But I think any brand/model is cheaply made these days. I noticed an antenna tower that had a Rotor support plate to help with the rotor strain on bigger antennas. You could probably clamp something similar to help hold some of the strain, however, time will loosen every cheap clamp with the wind's help (go with some good U bolts if that's a thought for you)! :p


As far as the 4ft on the Antenna talk, do you mean only 4ft above ground, or a 4ft pole mounted on the roof?

I hope I somehow helped,




The antenna is quite easy to assemble - though quite long, ( I put it on my roof by myself with just a 6 ft. pole then 2 ft mast.) but not so much that it would seem overly heavy unless you had some VERY strong winds. We haven't and usually rarely ever have a wind over 30 mph ( 5- 10 avg. any day of the year ) so I believe it is just a defective rotor ( took my chances reading reviews, most all the "budget" rotors have an "x" percent failure rate. )

I can't find any way on his Vizio to do a partial scan , next time I'm over there I'll try the menu > system > etc.
The 4 ft is of RG6 from antenna to pre-amp. At my cousins house pole is 15 ft. on roof, ant on 2 ft. mast connected to rotor.

Rickideemis - TV is about a year old .

RF Steve, Fringe - I just might try a Y5-2-6 for now, then on a slow weekend try a home rigged one.

Thank you for your responses. This is all quite helpfull.
 
#13
I had my Samsung for years before I learned that I could add channels manually. I never had the need to. I've had the misfortune to work with a friends Magnavox that I've never figured out how to add channels to. I haven't spent enough time with it, but I suspect that it can be done in the aim antenna menu on that one. I just worked with a philco converter box a couple of weeks ago that I programed without doing a channel scan just by entering the real channel numbers.
There are two low VHF channels on your TV fool that from what I could tell both transmit the same programing. Keep in mind that low VHF signals are very subject to electrical interference.
 

Buckwheat

DTVUSA Jr. Member
#14
The only time I used his Vizio remote was when I scanned for channels after putting up antenna. Probably 10 minutes. Then after replacing rotor, another 5. It's no where near my Sony remote. I'll see if he can get me the TV model #, perhaps some one has one similar.

As to the low VHF, I'm thinking old school ( remember, I'm a newb ) and Rickideemus pointed out I'm interested in digital 44 not 2.1 . It just sunk into my skull, yes I'm slow I guess.:duh:
 

Fringe Reception

Super Moderator, Chief Content Editor
Staff member
#15
... I will consider the rotor brand/model :p But I think any brand/model is cheaply made these days. I noticed an antenna tower that had a Rotor support plate to help with the rotor strain on bigger antennas. You could probably clamp something similar to help hold some of the strain, however, time will loosen every cheap clamp with the wind's help (go with some good U bolts if that's a thought for you)! ...
Buckwheat and Kriss,

The last top quality "light-duty" household antenna rotors were made by Alliance, long out of business. Unlike newer units the Alliance models have metal gears, but you're not out of luck because they are still available here!

Norm's Rotor Service - Alliance U-100 and U-110 Alliance and Genie antenna rotator and rotor control boxes
 
#16
Your cousin's dilemma

I didn't initially look closely at your station lineups, since you had so much work put in already. But now, with the shakey rotator and confusion on low VHF, I decided to go through your cousin's translator hell. I'll just dump my notes on you and then summarize.

--------------------------------

On low VHF, KFTY RF2 is a translator for KEMO RF32 which is a strong Spanish station in LOS and 16 miles away. K03IC RF3 is licensed, owned by a religious group but OFF THE AIR, according to rabbitears.info and the FCC. The VHF that may be of interest to your cousin are all high VHF: KGO RF7, KQSL RF8, KNTV RF12 and KXTV RF10.

In NM order:
K49KS RF49 is religious programming
KFTY RF2 is a translator for KEMO RF32
KEMO RF32 a strong Spanish station 16 miles away and line-of-sight
K14MW OFF the air religious station
K25HI analog translator for KRON-TV but only one 24 hr. news subchannel IF IT STILL EXISTS. I cannot confirm. 7 mag Probably not worth pursuing.
KRCB PBS -- 3 subchannels *** 119 mag
K26JV OFF the air religious station
K03IC RF3 OFF the air religious station
KDTV-CD Univision Spanish station
KTVJ analog Independent fiorimedia.com/fm/ station -- audio only?
KGO RF7 is an ABC owned-and-operated television station with local San Fransisco news
KTLN Christian themed TV, which I believe you can watch online at KTLN - San Francisco |
KDAS RELIGIOUS, may not exist -- no record found error on rabbitears.

KQSL RF8 is an independent television station serving San Francisco Bay. The station is the nation's only full-power television station which is wholly owned by a Chinese-American. Keeps changing format. Last few months carries a schedule of classic television shows and entertainment/Hollywood newsmagazines and specials. 317 mag -9.7 NM. Doubtful whether it's worth pursuing.

KNTV RF12 Only shot at NBC. Cozi TV is on 11.2 150 mag
KXTV Another ABC station, and 63 degrees off compass heading. Not worth pursuing. 87 mag
KPIX Only shot at CBS. -16.0 NM, but on compass heading 150 magnetic.

--------------------------------

SUMMARY

The only five stations worth pursuing, assuming your cousin isn't Spanish or captivated by religious programming:

K25HI RF25 analog translator for KRON-TV, only one 24 hr. news subchannel -- 7 mag NM= 43.2
KRCB RF23 is a PBS station with 3 subchannels -- 119 mag NM= +38.3
KGO RF7 is an ABC owned station with local San Fransisco news -- 150 mag NM= -3.2
KNTV RF12 Only shot at NBC. Cozi TV is on 11.2 -- 150 mag NM= -10.9
KPIX RF29 Only shot at CBS -- 150 mag NM= -16.0 -- Long shot.

Anything below this will also be at 150 magnetic, but long shots, nevertheless, due to the very low NM.

You need to consider whether one analog (i.e. fuzzy) 24 hr. news station, that will probably disappear next year, is worth a second UHF antenna or a rotator.

For 7 and 12 you definitely need something like a Y10-7-13 with a good amplifier if coax is > 30 ft.

For any chance at 29 you need a big Yagi pointed at 150 degrees magnetic. There's a good chance that will also catch 23, 31 degrees away. If not, there are many outlets for PBS online.

Outside of K25HI I don't see any need for a rotor.

I would go over the situation carefully with your cousin, to see if he feels this is worth the effort and expense.

JMHO,
Rick
 
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Buckwheat

DTVUSA Jr. Member
#17
Buckwheat and Kriss,

The last top quality "light-duty" household antenna rotors were made by Alliance, long out of business. Unlike newer units the Alliance models have metal gears, but you're not out of luck because they are still available here!

Norm's Rotor Service - Alliance U-100 and U-110 Alliance and Genie antenna rotator and rotor control boxes
Fringe, this is good to know! WHEN my rotor goes bad I will get one. Price is right for what you get.

I didn't initially look closely at your station lineups, since you had so much work put in already. But now, with the shakey rotator and confusion on low VHF, I decided to go through your cousin's translator hell. I'll just dump my notes on you and then summarize.


I would go over the situation carefully with your cousin, to see if he feels this is worth the effort and expense.

JMHO,
Rick
Rick, He's getting KGO 7 quite well. This channel is the one he has the most interest in. The new rotor is working and Kron on 25 is bearable Skip the spanish and religious stations, though they come in very good, KPIX locked on the scan but no signal. No lock on KNTV nor Cozi.

The model of his TV is
E421VO
I looked up directions to run a scan without deleting previous scans and I figured it out.
 
#18
Rick, He's getting KGO 7 quite well. This channel is the one he has the most interest in. The new rotor is working and Kron on 25 is bearable Skip the spanish and religious stations, though they come in very good, KPIX locked on the scan but no signal. No lock on KNTV nor Cozi.
I was just saying in another thread that I've never seen anyone get a station below NM = -10 reliably. (For readers who dislike negative numbers, -10.9 and -16.0 are both less than -10.) If you aimed the rotor carefully at 150 magnetic, scanned, and KPIX and KNTV didn't come in, you've done all you can do.

IF (big "IF") you could ever find a perfect angle for the rotor such that KPIX and KNTV magically came in, you could think about leaving it there in preference to K25HI. A real diehard would install a separate antenna and converter box for K25HI. That way you don't have to keep rescanning, and you can surf freely from channel to channel.

So what you really got for all your hard work is three stations plus some Spanish and religious stuff. Sorry about that! :embarrassed:

Rick
 

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