Ok, asking for input once again!

[KrissB]

I've added some photo's of what I have so far, actually I've been spouting out I had a DB-2 to test, and was doing well! Well I made an error, I only had a DB-1 in my window! I built my DB-2, and realized then I had to build yet another DB-2 to make a DB-4! lmao... Ugg!

Ok, so I got the DB-2 working decent, but still lacking a bit in what the DB-1 was pulling but I think it's something to do with the extra wire I had dangling freely (12 gauge solid wire) ready to finish the DB-4. I also think I made my cuts an inch too short! :\

So, I can start by asking... lol Has anyone got any idea's how to add 1/2" to each end of my V's? It sounds like every man's question in life... Just another inch!!! Anywho lol sorry...

Also, curious about spacing, I originally wanted to space my V's 4" from each opposing V ends. Hard to explain, hopefully someone gets it. :\

Now, I had watched Nascar on Fox 29.1 flawlessly with the DB-1 (split to 3 TV's using our 1 to 4 Radio Shack bidirectional "Cable" TV amplifier. I simply redesigned the DB-2 from my 1st pic (the one in front of the maroon curtain. It wouldn't hit for anything, I found a few possible problems, and eliminated them in the revision. 1 fix was to shorten the distance between the V's by more than 60%, I think I nearly went 80% if I actually did the math on what I had, but unsure exactly what starting spacing was. 2nd fix was to eliminate the copper straps that were wrapped around the V's to hold them into place (not soldered so I think that was bad for it). I simply drilled a hole in the middle and screwed it straight into the pipe, with the wire wrapped neatly around the screw to work/connect.

So, finally after all that, I had to figure out how to keep it in the sweet spot I had the DB-1 in lol... Such a struggle!!! lol Eventually we got the channels we had using the DB-1. Seems more stable now at least as before a car driving by would scramble the channel if it was a big car ( I think being indoors, and height is my issue there ). I hooked up all the TV's in the house to test my limits however with the DB-1, and it held strong with all the TV's going and the kids changing stations trying to find Nickalodean... lol The wife was on Fox, watching Nascar, and I just kept browsing the channels trying to see if I could get her mad at me for scrambling the picture, but car after car went by, and she never had an issue! She was actually happy, very odd!!!

After Nascar, I swapped the antenna's, and did my struggle, and she wasn't happy at all until it finally got back to almost where we were! I added the make-shift reflector curtain to be about where the DB-1's reflector was 4" away, using a Nintendo Wii Box, elements on outside on the front, small reflector on the back.

As for what I want from my rooftop antenna rig when I finally get to that point.

My TV Fool report.

*Prefer to find some tool to help me find my sweet spot (looking for the name of that tool).


I currently get these channels without issues (aside from a 3-5 degree angle in the antenna:

In Virtual Ch. order

Ch. - Virtual Ch.
33 - 2-1 NBC, 2-2 Weather Ch, 2-3 Antenna TV - Southwest
39 - 4-1 CBS Southwest
20 - 5-1 (Toronto, Canada Ch.) Unsure North
38 - 7-1 ABC Southwest
45 - 8-1 CBS, 8-2 Bounce East
19 - 19-1 (Canada Ch) TVO Northwest
16 - 21-1 PBS, 21-2 PBS World, 21-3 PBS Create West
22 - Analog (pretty fuzzy but it's watchable) (Canada Ch. CBC) Pretty sure it's the same as 20 - 5-1 North
32 - 23-1 CW, 23-2 Bounce (duplicate of 33 - 8-2) West
14 - 29-1 Fox Buffalo (Sports Fox), 29-2 Zuus/TCN Country Music Channel West
28 - 31-1 Fox Rochester (much different than Fox Buffalo) (Generally no Sports) East
23 - 51-1 Ion, 51-2 Qubo, 51-3 Ion-Life, 51-4 to 51-6 shopping crap! Directly Southeast of me.

Channels I get at night, or with a lot of re-arranging in the day:
Also in Virtual Ch. order

43 - 17-1 PBS, 17-2 (Audio only I believe), 17-3 PBS Think West
25 - 25-1 French speaking Canada Ch. (lol doubt I ever need that ch.) North
36 - Analog Canada Ch. North
41 - 41-1 Canada Ch., 41-2 same as 41-1 only 720p; both are GTN (I think it's much like Fox) Northwest
47 - 47-1 Canada Ch. OMN (not sure what this one is like only watched a few min of it) Northwest
49 - 49-1 MyNetwork TV (really would like to get this one in without issues) Southwest

Channels I would like to get, but can probably live without:
In Real Ch. order as I don't see their Virtual Ch.

2 - Canada channel (NEVER gonna happen, I don't intend on getting a VHF-Lo Antenna! But I'd like to see what it is ) North
6 - Maybe another Canada Ch. (if I get a VHF-Hi I feel I might get this at night at least!) Northeast (lol maybe 100+ miles)
7 - Southwest of me pretty sure it's got about 5 channels available once it's tuned in. Southwest
10 - NBC Rochester (I think it has another sub-ch.) East
13 - ABC Rochester (I think it has 2 more sub-ch.) East
15 - Independant? (but you never know what they are til you get em!) West
17 - Independant? (again same as above) Southwest
24 - Independant? ( ^ ^ ^ ) Southwest
25 - Independant? ( ^ ^ ) East
26 - Independant? ( ^ ) Southwest
44 - Independant? ( ^ probably Canada Ch.) I think it's near 100 miles N.E. tho, Unless I get the Syracuse Ch. East
46 - Independant? ( ^ not Canada Ch.) East

Ok, probably my most detailed post about my current situation! I have to sleep now tho, so I better wrap it up for now. If I missed something feel free to leave me a reply.

 

[KrissB]

Leaning toward using a homebrew make of DB-16 with a VHF-Hi DB-1 on top of that. lol That's my thoughts for now at least. DB-8 with a DB-1 VHF-Hi at the very least. VHF is not a big concern to me though I think.

Sleeping,
KrissB

 

[Rickideemus]

Kriss, let's get one thing straight. None of those antennas you built are DB2s or DBanythings. Just call them 1-2-4-6-8-16 (pick a number) bay bowtie antennas, K? I weally, weally doubt Antennas Direct appreciates you taking over their trademark! Sorry, but they have actual engineers who understand the math and run simulation software to get exactly the right size, spacing etc. for their antennas. Your pictures sure don't look much like any AD product *I've* seen.

I never knew you were splitting to three TVs before. With all the antennas you have lying around, why are you splitting anything?? Don't you know every split cuts the signal in half? Plus a little more?? Why don't you have a separate antenna for each receiver?

So you have 3 TVs fed by a 1 to 4 splitter -- inefficient. You're losing more signal than necessary, even supposing you're stuck with only one antenna.

As far as a sweet spot is concerned, you've played around with this long enough you should have a pretty good idea. As long as you stay indoors, there's so much signal bouncing all around, the exact perfect spot is liable to change day to day -- even hour by hour. The smallest, cruddiest antenna you put outside is liable to outperform your 16 bay bowtie inside.

No suggestions on any of that DIY stuff. Against my religion...

Rick

 

[KrissB]

Yea thanks for your "input" focused on the bashing of my tests, it's fine. I surely won't need a splitter to run from a rooftop antenna? Rather I should mount 1 set of rabbit ears 50 feet in the air for each TV set right? I'm going on your "input" sorry. No, not what I intend to do... Sorry you are focused on my testing, and inside spot. I simply split the reception to see what that antenna could do. I lost no signal as far as viewing wise for the 3 TV's. So, if it works, not sure why it would be questioned?

Anyways, Liable = likely = unsure of results. I'm sure of the results I have had 1 day, and yes, I'm very aware that is not a suitable permanent solution! Kind of why I asked for input to finish the job. I've yet to buy an antenna, so maybe I joke about being able to build something cool enough to go rooftop... Hey thanks you shot down my dream... Am I supposed to cry?

I guess I forgot how this is a forum to help people, so they can "Cut the cord" and have reliable over the air reception. Or maybe I worded it all wrong while I was foaming at the mouth from being tired? Either way, let me reiterate...

1. I plan to have a professional install an antenna pole at least, or simply a mount (if the antenna I do end up getting is small enough).

2. I plan to have a rotor to turn the antenna (as wind will probably move it either way, and like many people in the world... I too am lazy...)

3. I plan to buy an antenna to have installed on the antenna pole prior to having the antenna pole professionally installed.

4. I plan to also have wire ready! Should one go with twin-lead to antenna or coax?

5. I already have a 1-4 bidirectional radio shack splitter/amplifier I bought for testing my silly lil crap antenna's. Would this be feasible to utilize on a "real" antenna? It has a 100ma 12v power input, so I'm guessing it's a very low noise or a very crappy amplifier. It is variable (supposively). If it's crap, I have 23 days to take it back upon posting this. lol

6. I have 3 TV's and may add a 4th later. I know if the stations don't come in while the antenna is point to other stations I/they cannot watch that station that is black and the box stating No Signal verifies that! I do have boxing gloves if the situation becomes hostile. I will cross that bridge when it comes!

7. I probably missed something, feel free to bash me for it! But at least offer some usable input, thanks...

8. If it's not insanely priced, I would consider buying something to analyze the signal in case the "PROFESSIONALS" don't have such a tool, I can point where I'd like to throw away my money at... So if anyone has the proper name of such a tool, that would be greatly appreciated! ***And this of all questions is probably the most important one.***

Thank you in advance,
Have a wonderful day/night/sleep/work/breakfast/lunch/supper/dinner/brunch/whatever,
KrissB

P.S. I wasted a lot of time posting nothing above, feel free to ignore it! :thumb:

 

[MrPogi]

Kriss,
I am familiar with the area, I grew up in Rochester.

It's a difficult area due to overlapping markets from multiple directions, and all the Canadian stations in the mix. It's going to take a creative solution in your location to get ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX and PBS reliably. I'm thinking you should concentrate on those first, then consider any other networks you may get as a "bonus". Remember, too, that any analog Canadian channels you are getting will be going away soon as they go digital.

Keep experimenting.

 

[KrissB]

Leaning toward using a homebrew make of DB-16 with a VHF-Hi DB-1 on top of that. lol That's my thoughts for now at least. DB-8 with a DB-1 VHF-Hi at the very least. VHF is not a big concern to me though I think.

Sleeping,
KrissB

To help, I would have probably said,
"A homebrew anything is likely to fall apart unless you are an antenna professional yourself" (obviously I am not!)

But ok, I see where the "I'm not helping you at all" came in... "Insert BASH" lol

My bad, I guess it could be read differently than I intended it to be. I think many come here twisting wires, and asking questions. I think few strive to find something in their mind to work as well as they understand it, and when it doesn't work... You ask again or take a sledge hammer to it, and never speak of it again! I'm no rocket scientist... nor an antenna engineer... But when my Turd-2 works for me it makes me smile! I built that ugly piece of turd-2 and look, it's werkin!!! I suggest building these silly things with the right info... As I have a few manufactured antenna's that fail... The indoor antenna's are about like making your own... It either works or it don't... So why waste your money if you are creative, inventive, or just like to tear stuff up!!! Give it a shot... Eventually you will buy an antenna to put on your roof, or be a sucker and go back to Cable that just increased their bill... And if you went to Satellite, cool you went from one money hungry company, to another. I still can get TV with my Turd-2 in a sweet spot, split 4 ways! You empower me... Now hopefully someone will suggest something worthy of a final result so I can do away with my Turd-2, and it's sweet spot!

(*for legality purposes, where I may have stated DB-1, DB-2, DB-4, DB-6, DB-8, DB-10, DB-12, DB-14, DB-16, DB-48 I sincerely only offered suggestions to it's trademarked company, and will from now on refer to my very different variant as Turd-(respective #). I would be honored to see Turd-(#) on Walmart shelves, ready for a sweet spot in your home as a free idea to use ANYWAY you prefer!)* Enjoy!

 

[KrissB]

Kriss,
I am familiar with the area, I grew up in Rochester.

It's a difficult area due to overlapping markets from multiple directions, and all the Canadian stations in the mix. It's going to take a creative solution in your location to get ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX and PBS reliably. I'm thinking you should concentrate on those first, then consider any other networks you may get as a "bonus". Remember, too, that any analog Canadian channels you are getting will be going away soon as they go digital.

Keep experimenting.

Thanks MrPogi, glad to see someone who has an idea of the area. My dreaming to catch a few more signals are just that, dreams. I'm currently happy with what my homemade antenna has gotten me. It's just not as reliable as a rooftop antenna. I think I'm ready to find an antenna, just not sure what to get, I see huge antenna's on rooftops and think geez, that's overkill!!! But one the other hand, I bet it picks up a few channels I don't get! I'm thinking a medium antenna will suit me fine. Then again, I'm not sure of how it will perform in my area. Once you put an antenna up, you get what you get, there's no tweaking it other than moving it in a circle wrapping your antenna wire tighter and tighter... lol

Is it really that bad once I get in the air, as far as the overlapping? My dad has more advanced stuff in his basement in Indiana wired up, I went down there to check it out, and it looked like an alien ship over-run by coax, hooked into rackmount equipment, filters, boosters, cancellers (I think the rackmounts were changing the channel #'s so he could untwist the overlap somehow...) I don't want that headache, maybe that's why I'm just keeping it simple... lol

 

[Rickideemus]

Kriss, you and I just live in different universes. I can't connect with one thing you've written. For example:

Yea thanks for your "input" focused on the bashing of my tests, it's fine.

Tests? WHAT TESTS?? First I've heard about that. What are you testing? Do you have a specific theory, from some textbook on antenna theory, that you're trying to confirm or dispute? If so, why haven't you stated it? How can anyone help you with a scientific test without knowing what science you're testing??

I surely won't need a splitter to run from a rooftop antenna?

If you're planning to get a rooftop antenna, why do you have any indoor antennas at all?? Can't you make up your mind, and get the equipment you actually intend to use? I don't get it.

Rather I should mount 1 set of rabbit ears 50 feet in the air for each TV set right? I'm going on your "input" sorry. No, not what I intend to do... Sorry you are focused on my testing, and inside spot.

How could I be focused on your testing? I never had the foggiest idea you were testing ANYTHING! Rereading all your posts, even if I assume they are all about "tests," I STILL have no idea what it is you're testing!

I simply split the reception to see what that antenna could do. I lost no signal as far as viewing wise for the 3 TV's. So, if it works, not sure why it would be questioned?

I'm not questioning anything. What are you questioning? The fact that a splitter cuts a signal in half is very thoroughly accepted scientific fact. They print it right on the labels of most splitters. If you want to do a series of tests to invalidate that theory, you're going to need a whole lot more than the subjective "I lost no signal as far as viewing wise for the 3 TV's." You're going to need signal strength meters and dozens of tests, carefully recorded and collated, with many different receivers and antennas. Just testing this one hypothesis would be something like a year long project for one individual.

If you want to do serious testing, the general idea is to learn all related conventional theory FIRST, then pick something specific to prove or disprove and devise your tests. You need a background in math to even get started on an "Advanced Discussion" of "Antenna R&D" (the forum category).

Hey thanks you shot down my dream... Am I supposed to cry?

I'm not trying to shoot down your dream. I have no idea what it is you're dreaming about.

I guess I forgot how this is a forum to help people, so they can "Cut the cord" and have reliable over the air reception.

First thing I would advise anyone trying to cut the cord is to avoid making a long series of tests! After all, just a few years ago, that cord didn't even exist. Everyone relied on over-the-air reception -- for over forty years before the first cable was laid. We're not creating some brave new world here. Everyone knows it works, and worked for a very long time, and continues to work today.

I think many come here twisting wires, and asking questions.

Really, no. Not the way you mean it. People come here wanting to set up their TVs for over-the-air reception. Very few are interested in testing established theories. They want to put in a week or two of effort to avoid paying the cable company $100 a month for the rest of their lives. One guy took about 6 months, trying different things. But nobody thought he was testing any established theory about anything.

at least offer some usable input, thanks...

I thought my input was *very* usable. I said to stop calling your stuff DBanything. I really think you should stop doing that right away. I said you should stop splitting your indoor antennas. I really believe you should stop that too. I tried to dissuade you from putting much more effort in finding a sweet spot indoors. I really think you've had enough indoor antennas in enough different spots you should be able to make a decision right now.

BTW, why would you care at all about indoor sweet spots, if you're planning to install something outside? You must think you're testing some scientific theory or something!

I have to know what you're trying to accomplish before I can offer any assistance. Maybe someone else understands what you're all about.

Rick

 

[KrissB]

Rick,

Well I think testing could simply mean testing the channel's I might be able to get.

Goofing around with antenna's and trying to catch a channel you thought was not catchable especially indoors... Only to find out it's possible. Yes it's all a pain in the rear... But I could simply be bored, and prefer to push my mind. That really interests me more than flipping through channels during "Paid Programming" times. Yes I agree, I should put up an antenna, and yet still not sure what your input is on that. And I also realize I should buy 3 antenna's, and discreetly place them around my roof? I think 1 antenna will suit my needs while utilizing a splitter (even with it's obvious downfalls *many people here use them* I'm not stupid, but if you prefer to think I am, simply ignore my posts). I doubt seriously we live in different worlds, as I too reside on Earth! Return fire of your non-sense sarcasm.

I notice no quote's on my bold points of interest, others really aren't needed unless you feel the need to delay my intentions of going rooftop, why am I even typing if you aren't here to help, then please move on.

Otherwise, Thanks in advance for your input on needed info,
KrissB

Ahh, I don't have a psychiatrist, if you are up to driving yourself nuts to make me sane, feel free to offer, I'll start an appropriate topic in an appropriate area of this forum.

 

[RF Steve]

Kriss, having looked at your TV fool report, and your reception results. I have to be quite impressed with the results you are getting with what I would call random wire experimentation. It would be difficult if not impossible to recommend anything that is guaranteed to work better in your current indoor situation. Keep working at it.
There are good computer modeled real world tested antenna plans that do work when carefully constructed following the plans.
Steve

 

[KrissB]

Kriss, having looked at your TV fool report, and your reception results. I have to be quite impressed with the results you are getting with what I would call random wire experimentation. It would be difficult if not impossible to recommend anything that is guaranteed to work better in your current indoor situation. Keep working at it.
There are good computer modeled real world tested antenna plans that do work when carefully constructed following the plans.
Steve

LOL, Well, thanks I think. Dang, this is frustrating trying to get advice when it seems I'm doing pretty well with Indoor Turd-2's. Rick had me going, and now he forced me to pick up VHF-Hi Ch. 10 & 13. Where 13 is not reliable, but I have added the Call letters to my TV. I enjoyed watching the CW on that station, as it is not all paid programming. So I'll be buying a VHF-UHF Combiner now too... I really don't mind the indoor antenna's but if I trip and fall on my face I'll probably do away with it sooner! lol

I made a Turd-1 VHF-Hi (Turd is my code name for BowTie now lol for copyright reasons or something!) lol. It gets UHF signal all the same, so I may resort to just going nuts on this element size. Turd-3 or Turd-4 will be up this weekend. Or a Brown-Turdman (Gray-Hoverman test antenna as mine is copper/brown lol). Rick I'm not mad at ya man, sorry for being a grump. You inspired this crap-line lol, they may look like $#!^ but they work very well! As for the Brown-Turdman I am afraid it will be huge.... I might stick something on the porch frame til the landlord complains (they haven't really contacted me back as far as a solid yes or no for the rooftop, just assuming they will allow something small). I read a little on the law post someone made in my 1st post, and I think the landlord is leaving it open so she can work with me to put something up, they just don't want a behemoth antenna to pose an issue.

Cutting elements for Ch.9 (186mhz) for Ch 10 & 13 to see if it's better than the current Ch.7 (174mhz) elements. Thinking bigger is better, but That one doesn't want to fit in the window! How far can I bend an element before it messes up the reception? I know I can do V, that seems to be the best I've used here... 3/8" copper is a pain to reshape in different directions lol...

Short post tonight,
KrissB

 

[KrissB]

WOOT! It's official, I'm rednecking out this window!!!

Alright, I made a Turd-1 cut for Ch. 9 (186mhz), shoved it in my "Sweet-spot" window at ideal height. Scanned on the TV in the back that is coming off of 1 (2-way) splitter, which is fed off of a 1 to 4 Amplifier (turned all the way up otherwise the Radio Shack amp has no signal on any station lol, so I could use input on a better quality amp/splitter). Since this is just a test, no bashing is required! So, back to the results on worst case TV scenario. 30 digital virtual channels; 14 real channels. As listed above, I can now possibly add 43, 25, & 41 to being reliable now, the wife will test/monitor during the day. I feel that is huge results for indoor goofing! I have a pretty good idea what I need now as far as rooftop antenna. This is going to be mounted on my front porch this weekend, 3 feet away from my sweet spot window. I do have a contraption/reflector hanging 4-5 inches away from the antenna.

Oh, no A-B switch, I hope to get 10 and 13 reliably after putting it on the porch. I think after that I will have to decide which antenna to purchase. Has anyone seen any reliable/sturdy 8 bay antenna setup for Ch 7??? Do I really have to make a Turd-8 cut for Ch 7?

Inspired,
KrissB

Pic of what I got going now lol...



1st TV (Vizio after the powered splitter) results.

 

[Rickideemus]

I made a Turd-1 VHF-Hi (Turd is my code name for BowTie now lol for copyright reasons or something!) lol.

I was kidding about the trademark. Technically, AD could get p'd off and send you a nasty letter, but technically quantum theory says we can all walk through walls! :clown: I just thought reading DBwhatever was a little confusing for people. But now that you've cornered the Turd market, everyone will understand that means bowtie -- problem solved! :thumb:

Rick I'm not mad at ya man

I appreciate that. I guess you has ta build it cause it's there. Party on bro!

Rick

 

[KrissB]

I re-cut my 300 ohm Folded Dipole... Wow, the errors I made starting this venture... lol I can make a MEAN signal cancelling antenna!!! Once re-cut for proper size, the Folded dipole has proven to be a much stronger antenna. I think many here has suggested 300 ohm antenna's are the way to go, I would have to agree at least for VHF! I just need to figure out how to stack Folded Dipoles to use the same feed line... The VHF one works great for most UHF, just hoping to somehow twist a UHF to go another direction! lol... I think I know the answer, but I have to ask... Is it possible? I'm really considering VHF/UHF Combiner, but I am not sure if what I want to do will remotely work!

My thought if distance is required between the antenna's, the UHF one could easily go nearly anywhere, I just need an idea to start with or a simple no, it shouldn't (I'll probably still try just to see, not to prove anyone wrong... Just testing limits you know!), or even no it won't work!

Thanks in advance,
KrissB

 

[RF Steve]

Kriss I've often worked through the same thing you are experiencing. I have a pretty good junk collection including some 300 ohm to 75 ohm UVSJs. I know many would call this stuff junk but I've found it to work quite well. I recently combined an 8" UHF loop with a 28" VHF folded dipole using something like this.Leviton UHF VHF Video Band Separator 75 to 300 300 Coax Cable C5152 | eBay
The one I was using was a TVMAN BY WINEGARD TV-175. I have two of them I'm not certain where I aquired those. I have one that looks like the one on the ebay link I haven't tested it yet.
I've got a couple of this style the one I tried once seemed to work good. Amazon.com: Combiner Transformer UHF-VHF: Everything Else
Directly combining UHF and VHF elements by the seat of your pants seldom gives one the desired results.

 

[RF Steve]

Kriss what I'm saying is keep your eye on the thrift store electronic junk. I've never used one of the UVSJs I mentioned on an antenna I've put into actual use, but I have tested them to see if they would work for my purposes. They were built for indoor use back when TVs had separate 300 ohm VHF/UHF terminals on the back, or when 300 ohm twin lead was ran to the antennas and the TV had a modern 75 ohm input.
Steve

 

[KrissB]

Directly combining UHF and VHF elements by the seat of your pants seldom gives one the desired results.

Hehe, yea, I found that out a few days ago. I found my VHF sweet spot mostly East facing, and my UHF seems to be mostly North facing... I'd say about 12-14 feet between the elements lol... The wire to wire combining was a joke... So much glitching, scrambling, drops, etc. very few channels came in ok. So yea, I gotta find something to do make an attempt at what I'm looking for.

Thanks for your input, I'll be looking at the links,
KrissB

 

[RF Steve]

I'm not suggesting that you order that kind of junk. ( treasures ) If you can find them cheap, or free grab them they can be useful for those of us who like to play.

 

[KrissB]

I'm not suggesting that you order that kind of junk. ( treasures ) If you can find them cheap, or free grab them they can be useful for those of us who like to play.

Yea, a lot of the stuff I toy with is exactly that. Lately it's been more miss than hit! But that's how it goes.

 

[KrissB]

Picked up a Clearstream 4 and a Clearstream 2V. The 2V has a separate coax connection for any VHF antenna (basically heavy duty rabbit ears used on the 2V). I tried the 2V VHF, it failed in the spot my VHF did well, Folded Dipole vs 2 Dipoles, Folded Dipole seems to win. Now I need a way to combine the CS4 with the CS2V back to back they will "on paper" cause a fire; do well; cause me a major headache; or cancel themselves out.

I'm thinking the CS4 is a loop setup (tempted to tear one of the elements apart to cure my curiosity. If it's a loop setup, can I reconfigure the balun to add my VHF Folded dipole on to the CS4 similar to the CS2V? I'm willing to crack one open if the theory (to add another 300ohm in parallel) is correct (to verify loop setup *300ohm setup is what I mean by loop setup*). If I confused anyone, hey don't feel bad, I nearly confused myself!

KrissB

P.S. I know I'm being lazy... Modifying a mass produced something. The CS4 gives me a stronger signal than my current UHF solution though, so I'm simply going with what works.