Outdoor Antenna Device - RCA ANT751 or Channel Master 3010 or ....?

uscpsycho

DTVUSA Jr. Member
#1
Outdoor Antenna Advice - RCA ANT751 or Channel Master 3010 or ....?

Hello, I'm a new user here with some questions after spending half a day researching antennas.

I live in L.A. (specifically, just south of BH if you know the area). On tvfool.com (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=da32f49793869d) all the channels I care about are in green which indicates "An indoor "set-top" antenna is probably sufficient to pick up these channels." So I suspect the quality of the antenna isn't so important. Although in L.A. there are lots of channels below channel 7 so that is important.

All stations are between 21 - 21.5 miles away so I don't think I need a very powerful antenna. Azimuth is between 56-60 for all the stations also. So I assume directional or omnidirectional won't make a difference.

I am on the second floor so I'm guessing the cable run is 20-30 feet from the dish to my TV/AVR.

I assume a smallish antenna like the 3010 or ANT751 will do the job with flying colors if mounted to the roof of a three story building.

Any of these assumptions wrong?

I am leaning towards the 3010 because it also has FM capabilities and I would very much like to improve my FM reception. But how do these combo TV/Radio antennas work? Do they have two coax outputs or just one? If it's just one then I assume I'll have to split the signal to my TV and to my receiver and that means a loss of signal strength...

If I have to use a splitter will I still be OK without any kind of amplification? Amplification is not an option for me so this is a huge question mark for me.

Can you give me any advice here? Will I be OK with either antenna? And if I have to split the cable to get FM to my receiver is that going to impact me too much?

At risk of making my head spin even more, are there any other antennas I should be considering? I'm in an apartment building and can't have a massive 7'+ antenna put on the roof...

Thank you in advance for any help!
 
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SWHouston

Moderator
Staff member
#2
Greetings Psycho, welcome to the Forum :welcome:

Lots of questions, so succinctly...

Yes, you probably could get many of those channels with an Indoor Antenna.

The quality of an Antenna is somewhat important, remember you're making an investment which could last you 20 years.

Both the CM-3010 and the ANT-751 will get the Full Range of stations, including FM, and are both sufficient for the range and beamwidth for what you require.

A Cable Run of 20-30 feet is quite acceptable, no amplification required, and YES, a roof mount will provide you with the best reception.

On the above mentioned Antennas ( and most others ) there is only one "F" type Coaxial connector, which you connect the downlead Coax to, for your TV.

In your case, I doubt if adding a Splitter, will require additional Amplification. If it does, you can always add that later.

Splitting off for FM, is usually done right before the TV. You install a special splitter inline, which has an output for your TV, and one for your FM Receiver. If you have an older receiver which requires 300 Ohm Twin Lead, you just use a Balun in reverse, to convert back to 300 Ohm.

If there's anything else we can help you with, please ask.

Have a good Day ! :)
S.W.
 
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dkreichen1968

Moderator
Staff member
#3
A Channel Master 2016 would work good in your situation also, and would pick up FM. The FM band is between low and high VHF television and so VHF TV antennas will pick it up. Just point the antenna toward 45 degrees from magnetic north and you will have great signal. As SWHouston said use a splitter to split off the signal to your TV and FM tuners.
 

uscpsycho

DTVUSA Jr. Member
#5
Greetings Psycho, welcome to the Forum :welcome:

Lots of questions, so succinctly...

Yes, you probably could get many of those channels with an Indoor Antenna.

The quality of an Antenna is somewhat important, remember you're making an investment which could last you 20 years.

Both the CM-3010 and the ANT-751 will get the Full Range of stations, including FM, and are both sufficient for the range and beamwidth for what you require.

A Cable Run of 20-30 feet is quite acceptable, no amplification required, and YES, a roof mount will provide you with the best reception.

On the above mentioned Antennas ( and most others ) there is only one "F" type Coaxial connector, which you connect the downlead Coax to, for your TV.

In your case, I doubt if adding a Splitter, will require additional Amplification. If it does, you can always add that later.

Splitting off for FM, is usually done right before the TV. You install a special splitter inline, which has an output for your TV, and one for your FM Receiver. If you have an older receiver which requires 300 Ohm Twin Lead, you just use a Balun in reverse, to convert back to 300 Ohm.

If there's anything else we can help you with, please ask.

Have a good Day ! :)
S.W.
Thank you. Yes, I tried to inform myself before plastering a new forum with a bunch of noob questions. Did my best but at some point it becomes more efficient to ask for help.

You said for my FM I'll need a "special splitter inline, which has an output for your TV, and one for your FM Receiver." A "special" splitter? Can you be more specific to what I'm looking for? I was just going to use a basic coax splitter. IIRC some splitters are only effective at certain frequency ranges so I'd have to figure that out and get one that works for this application.

Also, if I understand correctly, any of these antennas will pick up FM stations even if not advertised as such. Is that right? If so I don't understand why they don't all indicate that they are FM capable. It's a huge competitive advantage with a noob like me who wants both. I talked to an antenna distributor yesterday who had no clue about this. I honestly feel like after my research I now know more about antennas than he does. SMH

As for quality, I'm in apartment which I don't think I'll be in for more than a couple more years so investment in an expensive antenna which I won't be taking with me isn't prudent. Plus, in L.A. the most severe weather the antenna will be exposed to is bouts of heavy wind and rain. No snow, freezing temps, etc. Any of these antennas look like they should hold up to that for a few years.

A Channel Master 2016 would work good in your situation also, and would pick up FM. The FM band is between low and high VHF television and so VHF TV antennas will pick it up. Just point the antenna toward 45 degrees from magnetic north and you will have great signal. As SWHouston said use a splitter to split off the signal to your TV and FM tuners.
Thanks for the suggestion but the specs for this antenna indicate it's good for channels 7-69. That would eliminate NBC and CBS for me so that's no good. Also, this one is quite a bit bulkier than the 3010 or ANT751 which are almost completely flat vs the 2016 which is big in the third dimension.

Nice TVfool. I could stick a weenie on a coax and get good reception there.

For your FM radio stations, go here: FM Fool - FM Signal Locater
This brings up an important question for me. I have a roof mounted antenna now. [Side note, I'm frustrated as all hell to know that I probably could've put a splitter on this antenna and enjoyed better FM reception all these years!] I hadn't used the antenna in several months then I got a new TV. On the new TV I am getting nothing but pure snow on the antenna input. I thought maybe a cable connection had gone bad on the roof but a tech came out and said the antenna was shot and I need a new one. Hence the search for a new antenna. But if the proverbial weenie would provide good reception then shouldn't the mere fact that I've got ~30 feet of coax plugged in result in something other than snow? Maybe a fuzzy picture or some audio? Perhaps the problem is the TV rather than the antenna?

That being said, I used an FM modulator to convert an AV feed from RCA cables to coax and that played just fine on the TV's antenna input. What are the odds the TV's tuner doesn't work? That would be the only other explanation.

The FM Fool is interesting information. Azimuth of my two most listened to stations is 57 (same as all my TV channels) & 36. Since my TV channels are such a piece of cake should I focus on a more omnidirectional antenna for the overall benefit of FM? Would the ANT751 or CM3010 have an advantage for FM?

Lastly, is there anything that can be done to improve reception of AM stations?

Thanks for the help. Sorry for all the questions, hopefully this will help other Googlers looking for help in the future too!
 
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dkreichen1968

Moderator
Staff member
#7
Thanks for the suggestion but the specs for this antenna indicate it's good for channels 7-69. That would eliminate NBC and CBS for me so that's no good. Also, this one is quite a bit bulkier than the 3010 or ANT751 which are almost completely flat vs the 2016 which is big in the third dimension.?
Okay, you just made a newbie mistake. ;) Since the digital transition channels 2 & 4 aren't broadcast on 2 & 4 but on 43 and 36, so you don't need low VHF anymore. Also the 3010 or ANT751 wouldn't do any better on low VHF than the 2016.

This brings up an important question for me. I have a roof mounted antenna now. [Side note, I'm frustrated as all hell to know that I probably could've put a splitter on this antenna and enjoyed better FM reception all these years!] I hadn't used the antenna in several months then I got a new TV. On the new TV I am getting nothing but pure snow on the antenna input. I thought maybe a cable connection had gone bad on the roof but a tech came out and said the antenna was shot and I need a new one. Hence the search for a new antenna. But if the proverbial weenie would provide good reception then shouldn't the mere fact that I've got ~30 feet of coax plugged in result in something other than snow? Maybe a fuzzy picture or some audio? Perhaps the problem is the TV rather than the antenna?
If your getting snow it means your TV is analog or at least tuning in analog mode. You need a digital TV or digital converter box. What type of TV do you have?
 
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uscpsycho

DTVUSA Jr. Member
#8
Okay, you just made a newbie mistake. ;) Since the digital transition channels 2 & 4 aren't broadcast on 2 & 4 but on 43 and 36, so you don't need low VHF anymore. Also the 3010 or ANT751 wouldn't do any better on low VHF than the 2016.



If your getting snow it means your TV is analog or at least tuning in analog mode. You need a digital TV or digital converter box. What type of TV do you have?
A-HA! That might be it! My TV is a Samsung PN63C8000. Would a top of the line 2010 TV not have digital TV reception? I've not noticed an analog/digital option in the settings before but I'm going to take another look and see if I can find one.

Thanks for correcting my noob mistake, I was wondering how so many people could live with all these antennas that didn't work for channels below 7! LOL

Would the 3010 or ANT751 do any better for FM reception coming from different directions?
 

dkreichen1968

Moderator
Staff member
#9
A-HA! That might be it! My TV is a Samsung PN63C8000. Would a top of the line 2010 TV not have digital TV reception? I've not noticed an analog/digital option in the settings before but I'm going to take another look and see if I can find one.

Thanks for correcting my noob mistake, I was wondering how so many people could live with all these antennas that didn't work for channels below 7! LOL

Would the 3010 or ANT751 do any better for FM reception coming from different directions?
No, all 2010 TVs have digital tuners (and analog tuners). In the set up procedure or menus it should ask you if you want to scan for channels, and if you want cable or air. Try it with your old antenna first, and report back. I'd think that both the 3010 and ANT751 would work well for FM from multiple directions.
 
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MrPogi

Moderator, , Webmaster of Cache Free TV
Staff member
#10
Your TV is Digital ready. Yea, if there is snow, you're trying to tune analog. Digital would be a blue or blank screen if it finds no channels.

If you're serious about your FM you may want to get an FM omnidirectional "turnstile" type antenna, with its own coax, if your stations will be spread around the compass dial. If they are all pretty much in the same direction, your TV antenna will work fine.
 
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uscpsycho

DTVUSA Jr. Member
#11
No, all 2010 TVs have digital tuners (and analog tuners). In the set up procedure or menus it should ask you if you want to scan for channels, and if you want cable or air. Try it with your old antenna first, and report back. I'd think that both the 3010 and ANT751 would work well for FM from multiple directions.
:duh: DOH!

That solved the problem. My antenna, cable and TV are just fine. And I've wasted a SH*TLOAD of time on this. Not just researching but also two days on idiot DirecTV tech service calls. I am beyond frustrated. I tuned to channel 2, 4, etc. and got nothing but snow so I assumed there was a problem. I just didn't know any better and neither did DTV tech. :icon_beat:

Your TV is Digital ready. Yea, if there is snow, you're trying to tune analog. Digital would be a blue or blank screen if it finds no channels.

If you're serious about your FM you may want to get an FM omnidirectional "turnstile" type antenna, with its own coax, if your stations will be spread around the compass dial. If they are all pretty much in the same direction, your TV antenna will work fine.
I'm going to run a splitter from my current antenna to my receiver and see how that works for FM. I assume it'll be a huge improvement over my powered Terk indoor FM antenna. If not I may get the Antennacraft FMSS. DirecTV still owes me an antenna installation which I no longer need for HD channels so I may use it on the FM antenna.
 

uscpsycho

DTVUSA Jr. Member
#12
After the endless research and frustration getting this solved I am amused by the fact that a comment about using a weenie as an antenna was the turning point.

If I hadn't thought that comment out I'd have bought a CM3010, wasted another day waiting for DTV to come install it and I'd still have the exact same problem!

Huge thanks to MrPogi for the weenie comment!

At least I learned a lot about antennas in the process... :)
 

FOX TV

Contributor
#13
Hello, I'm a new user here with some questions after spending half a day researching antennas.

I live in L.A. (specifically, just south of BH if you know the area). On tvfool.com (TV Fool) all the channels I care about are in green which indicates "An indoor "set-top" antenna is probably sufficient to pick up these channels." So I suspect the quality of the antenna isn't so important. Although in L.A. there are lots of channels below channel 7 so that is important.

All stations are between 21 - 21.5 miles away so I don't think I need a very powerful antenna. Azimuth is between 56-60 for all the stations also. So I assume directional or omnidirectional won't make a difference.

I am on the second floor so I'm guessing the cable run is 20-30 feet from the dish to my TV/AVR.

I assume a smallish antenna like the 3010 or ANT751 will do the job with flying colors if mounted to the roof of a three story building.

Any of these assumptions wrong?

I am leaning towards the 3010 because it also has FM capabilities and I would very much like to improve my FM reception. But how do these combo TV/Radio antennas work? Do they have two coax outputs or just one? If it's just one then I assume I'll have to split the signal to my TV and to my receiver and that means a loss of signal strength...

If I have to use a splitter will I still be OK without any kind of amplification? Amplification is not an option for me so this is a huge question mark for me.

Can you give me any advice here? Will I be OK with either antenna? And if I have to split the cable to get FM to my receiver is that going to impact me too much?

At risk of making my head spin even more, are there any other antennas I should be considering? I'm in an apartment building and can't have a massive 7'+ antenna put on the roof...

Thank you in advance for any help!
My opinion briefly is to avoid indoor antennas, avoid omni directional antennas, and avoid long boom yagi style antennas for UHF, and opt for the back plane reflector type of UHF antenna. These types include the channel master and the clear stream c series antennas I would even recommend a separate antenna for FM and the few VHF channels you have.

UHF Back plane antenna links Clear Stream c series antennas here www.antennasdirect.com

or for channel master 4 bay http://www.prontotech.com/product/channel-master-4221hd-4-bay-p_1611343538

I chose these mainly due to their relatively compact size, and i have worked extensively with the Clear Stream C series antennas, and found them to be much better at rejecting multi path signals than the long boom yagi style antennas, especially for UHF.

I also had great reception at 75 miles out when they only claim 60 miles for the C-2 antenna, and observed this on many occasions while doing field signal strength testing using this type of antenna. It is my pick a one of the best UHF antennas on the market today. It was designed with digital reception in mind, and some of the Channel Master designs are a little older and were designed in the analog era.
 
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SWHouston

Moderator
Staff member
#14
Well Psycho, seems like things are going well for you, that'll teach me to take a nap ! :D

It looks like most of your questions have been answered save...

The "special" splitter that I was thinking about, is the...
HTML:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=CA8800&d=Winegard-CA8800-FM-Band-SeparatorCoupler-(CA8800)&c=Signal%20Combiners&sku=615798300593
Winegard CA-8800

Yes, one can use a standard splitter, and there may be other splitters which could work, but, I tend to try to use parts which are designed for a specific job, and, this one is.

We're all really glad this turned out well for you.

Have a good Day ! :)
S.W.
 

uscpsycho

DTVUSA Jr. Member
#15
Interesting splitter...

What I'm using now is a "hybrid splitter" that says it's for UHF/VHF/FM. That seems semi-specific but not as specific as the Winegard you linked.

The Winegard splitter is $22 which isn't a fortune but it's a lot to spend on a little passive splitter. Especially if it doesn't provide much improvement. So my question is this, will the FM splitter enable my receiver to get better reception or is this for better audio? If I'll get better reception and cut down on the static I get on some FM stations then I'm more interested.
 

SWHouston

Moderator
Staff member
#16
Psycho,

It's very difficult to answer that. Of course it's possible that a splitter which is specifically designed to do that job, may provide you with a better/clearer signal. Quality is also an issue, and Winegard is a industry leader in OTA. I've always leaned toward known/well established products, but you might do some search on recommendations, it's not something that's preventing you from receiving, just an improvement. So, you can work that out as time passes.

Have a good Day ! :)
S.W.
 

uscpsycho

DTVUSA Jr. Member
#17
Well, I guess my question is more along the lines of what does Winegard claim as the benefit of using this splitter? If it's better audio I don't care about that so much because it's FM radio -- it can only get so good. But improved reception, that's worth the money to me.

I sent Winegard an email asking them what to expect from the splitter and I will post their response for the benefit of anyone who stumbles upon this thread in the future. Thanks again for all the help guys!
 

uscpsycho

DTVUSA Jr. Member
#18
Well that was quick. Here is Winegard's response:

The CA-8800 is a TV/FM band separator. The CA-8800 is designed to separate the TV signal from the FM signal with a .4dB loss to each signal band as compared to a standard 2 way line splitter which has from 3.5dB to 4.0dB (30%) signal loss to each band. The CA-8800 will produce less signal loss to both of your of signals and therefore provide a stronger signal to both your TV set(s) and your FM tuner.

Normally a stronger signal gives you more stations, less noise (static) which will give you clearer audio. The CA-8800 will separate the TV signal and the FM signal with the .4dB of loss which would be the same as hooking your antenna directly to the TV set(s) or FM tuner directly. If you are concerned with ultimate FM reception and you are trying to use a TV antenna to receive both the TV and the FM signals, the FM signals received on a TV antenna will not be as strong across the FM band as you go higher in frequency than on a separate FM antenna because the TV antenna does not have actual elements tuned for the FM band on it. The TV antenna receives the FM signal on the channel 5&6 director elements of the TV antenna which are the closest in length to what is needed to receive the FM signal. A separate FM antenna is designed with elements the proper length to receive and give you the maximum performance on the FM band of 88-108 MHz. Winegard has three FM antennas, the HD-6010 omni directional dipole antenna, the HD-6000 4 element FM antenna and the HD6055P 8 element FM antenna.
If this separator will give me more stations with less static then I'm going to give it a try. That's worth $22 even though I don't listen to much FM and when I do it's a station that already comes in nice and clear. But stations in L.A. come and go with regularity so what I listen to today may not be what I listen to in the future.
 

Fringe Reception

Super Moderator, Chief Content Editor
Staff member
#19
Uscpsycho,

I learned something today: the extremely low loss of the Winegard TV/FM splitter, compared to a generic splitter. Thanks for making the inquiry to Winegard and posting the reply for us. It inspires me to buy one and add it to my system to see what FM I can receive with my existing antennas.

Jim :thumb:
 
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Fringe Reception

Super Moderator, Chief Content Editor
Staff member
#20
:welcome: kunkunssl,

Unfortunately, most online antenna reviews are posted by TV viewers and not by Professionals. Manufacturer reviews are also suspect because they are usually written by a marketing team rather than by the design engineers and reception 'mileage' claims are often very misleading.

Jim
 
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