Pre-Cut Channel 49 Antenna?

Chips

DTVUSA Member
#1
I have one channel that I am on the edge of getting. I would like to try a channel cut antenna for Ch.49, but I don't want to really spend $400. for a pre-Cut stack antenna array for channel 49, when I am not sure I will get it with that antenna. Anyhow the station is WNYO Ch.49 out of Buffalo, with my current antenna, I sometimes pick it up, not necessary with a trop, just depends on the weather pattern. I always get some signal reading on this station, just not enough signal to get it. WNYO Ch.49 back in July of 2009 did apply to install a non-directional antenna, which would solve my problem, but who knows if it will be accepted. Here is a somewhat accurate TVFool report. I have a second mast and a A-B switch I can use, but I can only get about 20 to 30 feet on that second mast and I am located in area surrounded by trees. Here is the TV fool.
HTML:
Callsign Chan  Network Dist(mi) Path NM(dB) 
 WKBW-DT  38  (7.1) ABC 47.3  2Edge  -12.6 
 WIVB-DT  39  (4.1) CBS 48.6  2Edge  -14.1 
 WGRZ-DT  33  (2.1) NBC 49.7  2Edge  -17.8 
 WNYO-DT  49   MyN 50.4  2Edge  -19.9
 
#3

Fringe Reception

Super Moderator, Chief Content Editor
Staff member
#4

Fringe Reception

Super Moderator, Chief Content Editor
Staff member
#5
Chips,

If you build your own Yagis, I would be happy to offer recommendations for simple CHEAP construction. They should cost you no more than $30 to build including the 'U' bolt and the balun and probably a lot less. Take a look at my photo albums here named Project 35, Project 38 and Project 48. My project 48 antenna is almost identical to your needs and it is shown below.
Jim

 
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Chips

DTVUSA Member
#6
Chips,

If you build your own Yagis, I would be happy to offer recommendations for simple CHEAP construction. They should cost you no more than $30 to build including the 'U' bolt and the balun and probably a lot less. Take a look at my photo albums here named Project 35, Project 38 and Project 48. My project 48 antenna is almost identical to your needs and it is shown below.
Jim

Thanks Jim. I would would love to try to build my own antenna. But if I am going to take a shot at building a quad set, I would like to try Ch.19 and CH.20. Both are Toronto Stations. Ch.20 is the CBC and sometimes I get them with a trop., although it is still at a third of its power. Ch.19 is TVO which is the Canadian version of PBS and since I don't get PBS, I would really like to try Ch.19. Most of the time Ch.19 in analog bounces in and out., plus I have an analog home transmitter which is tune to 19, so I can test it. Thanks in advance, for your help. If I had to chose Between Ch.20 and 19 I would probably go for Ch.19. Does a quad stack pick up a range of multiple frequencies? Thanks again for the help.
 

Fringe Reception

Super Moderator, Chief Content Editor
Staff member
#7
Chips,

Yagi antennas are willing to work below their designed frequencies to some extent, but they are not interested in receiving RF much above their design frequency. If I wanted to receive real channels 51 down to 43 on the same antenna, I'd build it for channel 48. Channels 19 and 20 will require an entirely different antenna.

To receive OTA here I currently have THREE entirely seperate antenna systems working, switched at each TV set split 4-ways around the house using NO amplifiers. I live in an RF pergatory and/or an RF soup (depending on the channel) and I don't like to lose. We have around 25 channels currently available and next summer with mast changes, we will have around 35. FREE TV. Works for us!

You can combine VHF and UHF antennas using a UVSJ but there is not an affordable way to combine multiple same-band antennas together. My next plan is to try a Dow Key to switch antenna feeds on the same mast, so I can use the same (single) coaxial downlead.

Jim
-------------------
If you want to build antennas for channel 19 and 20 (I'd build it for 20) please use the link Tower Guy offered to you at the top of this thread to determine all of the details.
 
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Chips

DTVUSA Member
#8
Chips,
If you want to build antennas for channel 19 and 20 (I'd build it for 20) please use the link Tower Guy offered to you at the top of this thread to determine all of the details.
Thanks Jim for the help. The reason I have always hesitated t o build an antenna, is because the math and the formulas are like rocket science to me. Tower Guy chart is useless to me because I have no idea what to enter in those specs. I have at least found a web site that gives me the frequency chart,
Television Frequency Table
but as far as what numbers to put in on the page Tower Guy was kind enough to post, I am clueless. Unless there is a book entitle How to build antennas for Dummies, I may be in trouble. However I am not a person that gives up. Any suggestions on how to go from dummy to rocket science (building a pre-cut antenna), would be appreciated :) .
 

Chips

DTVUSA Member
#10
Next question. Where do I get the parts to build the antenna? Online sources are better for me, since I am over 70 miles from either Rochester, or Buffalo, although I am in Rochester, NY once a week. Thanks in advance for any sources.
 
#11
I didn't count the number of elements, but the boom length of 15' is correct. 12 dbd gain stacked in a box of 4 would net about 17-18 db gain. Chips needs more than 23 db of gain.
 
#12
I think I got this. Does this look right ?
From this web site formula
Martin E. Meserve - K7MEM - VHF/UHF Yagi Antenna Design
(Wanted to make sure I reference the source, the actual formula for the build came up as blank page so I couldn't paste a link, had to post and image).
View attachment 1229
The antenna in your picture is not designed for channel 49, nor does it have enough gain to receive a signal with a NM of -19.9.

After properly designing the antenna I'd assumed that you would not attempt to build the antenna as it is rather impractical.
 

Chips

DTVUSA Member
#13
The antenna in your picture is not designed for channel 49, nor does it have enough gain to receive a signal with a NM of -19.9.
Sorry Tower Guy, I should have been more specific, I change to CH.20. But if I am curious if I got it right for Ch.20. And I hope you got some patience with me, but please explain what you mean by NM of 19.9 and yes when it comes to this I am a complete dummy. Thanks for the help.
 

Fringe Reception

Super Moderator, Chief Content Editor
Staff member
#14
Chips,

I did a quickie antenna design for Channel 19/20 (506 mHz) using .75" square tubing, a .25" driven element and the parasitic elements are .145". I chose that "odd" size because I have that size material in stock, but any size up to 1/4" works. The larger the diameter of the elements, the wider range of frequencies can be received (to some extent).

I prefer small diameter elements because there is less wind-loading, large birds don't like to perch on small elements and I don't want 'wider-band' Yagis in my situation.

In this design the elements are insulated from the boom which simplifies building it and minimizes its cost. I use plastic 'picture-hangers' that are used in drywall (view my albums) and they cost a few pennies a piece. So far, over 30 months they have resisted breaking down from UV radiation (sunlight) but if they fail, they can be replaced in a few minutes for a few more pennies. You could use rubber grommets as well, especially if you choose to use larger diameter material for the elements, but I can't say how well they hold up against sunlight.



If you have a fabricator or even a machine shop nearby, they may be willing to sell materials you need to build your antennas. Some hardware stores have appropriate materials but they are expensive. Another way to get materials is here, at about one-half the cost of a hardware store: Online Metals Blog » Blog Archive » Custom Antennas for HDTV…

Fabricating the driven element is the hardest part of the job and I make 'jigs' to fold the dipoles. Picture a 2X4" held flat in a bench vice. Bolt something round (a spool, small pulley) to the top of the board and measure the distance to a second spool that is exactly the width needed for the driven element, then bolt that spool in place. Then, you can hand-form the material around the two spools to shape the driven element. I'll snap a photo of one of my jigs and post it here later.

Jim
 
#15
And I hope you got some patience with me, but please explain what you mean by NM of 19.9.
Let's start from scratch. You live along Rt 19 just north of Wellsville, NY. This is roughly your TVfool report because I don't know which house is yours.

TV Fool

I don't see a channel 20 on the report. Other than reception of WNYO, what problem are you really trying to solve?

The NM value of negative 19.9 means that the gain of the antenna minus the noise figure of the preamp must be greater than 19.9. A preamp should have a ~3 db noise figure, so you need ~22.9 db of antenna gain to pick up WNYO.
 
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Chips

DTVUSA Member
#16
Let's start from scratch. You live along Rt 19 just north of Wellsville, NY. This is roughly your TVfool report because I don't know which house is yours.
Tower Guy, I am impress. WNYO is on my TVFool report. CBLT on Ch.20 and CICA on 19 (analog), are not on my TVFool report. However I have been using an antenna (actually I have play with various antenna set-ups the current one I like the best) for close to 3 years now.. Even though CBLT-DT and CICA don't show up on my TVFool and as hard as it is to believe considering how far away I am from the CN tower, I get those stations, I only get CH.20 with a Trop.,, but considering always in the warmer weather, like now, I always see some signal there. I can also look at CICA on 19 right now, but it is in and out. Now when the Canadians go to DTV, I may not get either station, but since I have been able get CBLT-DT 20 while it is running at about 38 kw (actually in the warmer weather I get as much signal on CBLT as I do on WNYO) and it is suppose to go to about 96 KW, I think I have a shot at getting them. And I get a good decent picture on CH.19 about 50 percent of the time. So I would like to try those stations, I got nothing to lose, other some time and money.However I would also work on getting WNYO. Thanks for your help.
 

Chips

DTVUSA Member
#17
Chips,

I did a quickie antenna design for Channel 19/20 (506 mHz) using .75" square tubing, a .25" driven element and the parasitic elements are .145". I chose that "odd" size because I have that size material in stock, but any size up to 1/4" works. The larger the diameter of the elements, the wider range of frequencies can be received (to some extent).
Fabricating the driven element is the hardest part of the job and I make 'jigs' to fold the dipoles. Picture a 2X4" held flat in a bench vice. Bolt something round (a spool, small pulley) to the top of the board and measure the distance to a second spool that is exactly the width needed for the driven element, then bolt that spool in place. Then, you can hand-form the material around the two spools to shape the driven element. I'll snap a photo of one of my jigs and post it here later.

Jim
Thanks Jim.
I appreciate the specs and your taking the time to post the information. I will have to look into the fabrication part.
Thanks again
 
#18
Tower Guy, I am impress.
Thanks, I grew up in western New York. I still follow the hapless Bills. (I guess that makes me hopeless.)

Interesting situation for CBLT. There are hilltops nearby that would work fine. At your house enhancement is needed, and the lake can help.

CBLT in wellsville.jpg

Good Luck.
 

Chips

DTVUSA Member
#19
Thanks, I grew up in western New York. I still follow the hapless Bills. (I guess that makes me hopeless.)

Interesting situation for CBLT. There are hilltops nearby that would work fine. At your house enhancement is needed, and the lake can help.

View attachment 1230
Good Luck.
Thanks again Tower Guy. My success with Toronto stumps me. Even before the Analog shutdown, I had more success with the analog stations out of Toronto then the ones in Grand Island. The only thing I can figure is the Terrain, when I look at it with a satellite image, the valleys seem to cut in this direction. Here is a map with some of the transmitter sites, I am pretty much in line for Buffalo, Grand Island, and Toronto, I don't have to change the antenna direction.
Toronto, Ontario & Buffalo, New York HDTV Channel Map (Big)

At least the Bills have the third overall pick in the draft. It might be good year. Of course I have bee saying it might be good year for the Bills, for the last ten years, but one these years I will be right.
 

Tim58hsv

DTVUSA Member
#20
the station is WNYO Ch.49 out of Buffalo, with my current antenna, I sometimes pick it up, not necessary with a trop, just depends on the weather pattern. I always get some signal reading on this station, just not enough signal to get it.
Not an expert here but I doubt the signal is actually as low as -19.9 despite what TVFool says. At least from my experience tv signals that low don't register a blip on the radar without the aid of some pretty fancy antennas and set-ups. The fact that you're getting a signal at all tells me that the situation isn't as hopeless as that -19.9 reading would imply.

For example, the lowest channel listed on my TVFool report that shows a signal on the converter box (but no video) is suppose to have a power level of -12.+ db, yet a handful of channels above it with stronger power levels show no signal on the box at all. The only other channel that produces a signal here but no video is (real) channel 19. That one is from Campbellsville,Ky. How the heck that one gets this far is beyond me but TVFool doesn't even list it as a possibility and they list channels as low as -26db.

Guess what I'm saying is that it may not be as hopeless as it seems.
 
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