Sadelco FS-3 Signal Meter

aerials

DTVUSA Jr. Member
#21
I thought I was the only one!

EV:
Glad to hear that you like Salvati's book; it's one of my favorites.

Do you mean FS-3?

I have found that an old TV field strength meter can be very useful when comparing antennas. The newer models are called a signal level meter (SLM). The reading of a digital signal on an old FSM will not be exactly the same as the reading on a signal level meter designed for digital signals, because the analog meter is designed to measure the peak value of the signal. The meter for digital signals is designed to measure the average value of the digital signal.

When I use my Sadelco 719E meter to measure a digital signal I turn on the audio to listen to the carrier. Its a rushing noise that sounds like white noise (or intercarrier noise between FM stations if the tuner does not mute). The digital signal nearly fills the whole 6 MHz channel, but I fine tune the meter to about 1/3 or 1/2 the channel width up from the bottom to avoid the pilot carrier at the lower end, which would give a false reading.

I often also have my Apex DT502 CECB connected with a splitter and watch the signal QUALITY bar when aiming an antenna because the best quality signal isn't always at the same azimuth as max signal strength because of multipath reflections. This is another example of signal quality (related to BER) being just as important as signal strength with digital signals.

If you read the Aussie DTV forums (they have had a longer experience with their DVB-T digital, especially with many antennas in the outback) you will see it said that you shouldn't hire an antenna installer unless he uses a BER meter to aim your antenna.

How closely to two meters agree depends upon the individual calibration of each meter. I have compared a Sadelco 719E analog meter with a Sadelco DisplayMax 800 designed for analog and digital signals and they are, by chance, fairly close:
Old TV field strength meter any good? - AVS Forum

But, when comparing antennas, aiming an antenna, or finding the best location for an antenna the absolute calibration is not as important as the linearity of the meter when making comparisons. The linearity can easily be checked by inserting the 20 dB attenuator to see if the new reading is 20 dB lower.

Actually, I prefer to use the needle of an analog panel meter to the digital readout meter when aiming an antenna.
Thanks for posting this. I have an analog Channel master meter model 7277-c and find the needle pinpoints signal very well. It still works for antenna selection and location of the aerial installation. Thanks again. The only problem is finding how low in the minus reading is the minimum for an acceptable level? In other words what minus reading is the zero d.b. in the analog world of good level to shoot for?
 

rabbit73

DTVUSA Member
#22
I thought I was the only one!
No, aerials, you are definitely not the only one.
Thanks for posting this. I have an analog Channel master meter model 7277-c and find the needle pinpoints signal very well. It still works for antenna selection and location of the aerial installation. Thanks again. The only problem is finding how low in the minus reading is the minimum for an acceptable level? In other words what minus reading is the zero d.b. in the analog world of good level to shoot for?
I'm pretty sure that the CM SLM was made by Sadelco after looking at a 7277D.

Sencore says that the signal should be between +15 dBmV and -15 dBmV:
http://www.sencore.com/uploads/files/AchieveGoodHDTV.pdf
http://www.sencore.com/uploads/files/Analyzing_Signal_Quality_of_TV_RF_Signals.pdf

How weak a signal can be, and still have good reception depends upon how much work the FEC (forward error correction) has to do, and the quality of the tuner and its chipset (5th generation....6th generation). Its ability to correct errors is limited. If it has to deal with errors caused by mulitpath or ambient noise in the reception area, then a stronger signal is needed to maintain lock.

I have made some tests and have found that a good tuner can maintain lock on a good quality (low BER...bit error rate) weak signal down to about -30 to -35 dBmV; the limiting factor then becomes the SNR (signal to noise ratio) which needs to be at least 15.5 to 16 dB to maintain lock:
AVS Forum - View Single Post - The Official AVS Antenna Topic!

The required NTIA sensitivity for CECBs is -83.0 dBm (-34.2 dBmV):
Manuals-summary-reports
click on Digital Converter Box Report which should take you to:
http://www.nabfastroad.org/NAB-STV%20Digital%20Converter%20Box%20Evaluation/Converter_Box_report.doc.pdf pdf p 21 of 53, p 4 of 36 of the attachment

If you want to know the correction factor for meters that measure analog and digital signals, Sadelco says to add 6.8 dB to the analog reading when measuring a digital signal. The actual correction factor depends upon the calibration accuracy of the individual meter in question.

Best regards,
rabbit
 
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SteveZ

DTVUSA Jr. Member
#23
To anyone considering a meter for DTV, the Sadelco is perhpas the most affordable, near-spectrum-analyzer-like display that can tell you a lot about the signal. The channel flatness display can identify issues with the antenna and/or the presence of multiplath. It's not cheap at nearly $1400 list but if you can find a refurbished one, you will have a useful tool that is more than just a meter. I find it to be a very compact and effective DTV service instrument.

If you have more bucks to spend, the Promax TV Explorer (for North America) is the most advanced istrument for ATSC. Promax makes DVB-T analyzers for other part of the world and introduced the Explorer line about nearly 5 years ago. It is the only mobile device that will display BER and MER as well as average power for ATSC modulation formats. It can also display an SD version of the DTV broadcast on its internal monitor screen. Of course, it commands a big price at about $4000. You would have to do a lot of work with DTV to recover this investment.

On a more practical level, don't overlook the older Sadelco and Wavetek meters. These were fine instruments in their day and still can perform well with a few mathematical corrections. Nearly all of these meters have a 280 kHz RBW and by adding about 4 dB to the instrument reading and being patient with tuning, one can do well with general DTV signal "estimates" of measurement. Now that much of CATV is digtial, many of the older instruments, even the onece expensive models will be available at factional costs.
 
#24
Yes, Steve, I also like the Sadelco meters. Even the older meters that were designed for analog signals are entirely adequate to aim an antenna, to locate an antenna in the best spot, or to compare antennas. Actually, I prefer the needle of a panel meter rather than a LCD meter to peak a signal.

A caution: stay away from the late used Sadelco analog meters like the 7600 or FS-5 because the audio has a true FM detector which isn't much help when you are trying to listen to a digital signal when tuning; the noise of the digital signal blends with the background noise. The older Sadelco analog meters used AM "slope detection" of the audio which makes the digital carrier stand out from the background noise. I found this out the hard way.

I want to make a correction to my post #4:
.....Other than a spectrum analyzer, the best instrument for comparing antennas is a signal level meter (SLM). There is one disadvantage to the newer scanning type meters like my DisplayMax 800: the display scan takes a long time before it gives the dBmV value which makes aiming an antenna tedious when in the scanning mode....
I found out from the Sadelco tech that the DM800 can be used to peak antenna aim:

"Regarding the Dmax800: keep in mind the "F1" soft key to allow a single freq reading at the center of the channel; although its not corrected for a digital signal, its a valid "relative" dB indication that updates about 5x per second. This is a good mode to be in for initial peaking of the antenna, then press the F1 again to get the scan and correct power reading."

The meters that I am presently using are a Sadelco 719E, DisplayMax800, and a DisplayMax 5000. I bought the 719E when I retired from the government in 1988, and the other two were given to me by my wife. I have a VERY understanding wife who tolerates my antenna experiments.

I tried the Perfect Vision DigiAir last year, but it was calibrated to NTSC signals and so it registered really low out of the meters range really to make it useable/readable. Shame because that would be a great little device if recalibrated to ATSC.

So Im wondering if you can switch to a lower reading on the analog meters with these analog Sadelco units.
I haven't had any experience with the newer Digiair Pro2 meter, but it has received three favorable reviews on the Solid Signal site. There is a manual there available for download, but I'm not sure that it is the correct one for the latest meter; it says: "All Modes are in NTSC MODE, Graphics reflect Europe version and are for example purposes only."
There are three manuals that can be downloaded from the importers site. Go the bottom of their home page and click on Manuals which should take you to their equipment manuals page which shows a choice of:

DigiAir Pro (DIGIAIR PRO 2004)
DigiAir Pro 2.1 (DIGIAIR PRO 2005)
DigiAir dB 1.0 (DIGIAIR dB 2001, has ATSC in upper right corner of display)

I don't know which one of the above is the right manual for the model sold by Solid Signal (my guess is the 3rd one):
Perfect Vision DIGIAIR PRO 2 Off-Air Digital and Analog TV Signal Meter (DIGIAIR DB) - Perfect Vision - DIGIAIR PRO2 -

To answer your question about lower readings:
Once you switch out all of the meter attenuators, you can't go any lower.
When I am doing sensitivity tests of tuners near the "digital cliff" using an attenuator and a splitter (to feed the tuner and the SLM), I find it necessary to insert a preamp between the splitter and the signal level meter (digital or analog) to be able to measure weak signals. I then subtract the preamp gain to obtain the true reading in dBmV. The noise figure of the preamp doesn't affect the tuner, because it isn't in line with it.

Keep in mind, however, that if you are measuring a very weak signal and you also have a very strong signal on the coax line, there might be a problem with preamp overload. I don't have that problem when I'm measuring tuner sensitivity, because I start with a strong signal and attenuate it before it gets to the splitter.

The specs for the Solid Signal meter say "Input level: 25-100 dBuV." This is equivalent to -35 dBmV (-83.8 dBm) to +40 dBmV (-8.8 dBm). This should take care of most of your measurements except for the very weakest signals; the NTIA CECB tuner sensitivity spec is -83 dBm.

My Sadelco 719E (similar to the FS-4) will measure down to about -35 dBmV, where the meter scale divisions become crowded. My Sadelco DM5000 measures digital signals down to about -23 dBmV before giving an under range message; for analog signals about -30 dBmV which reflects the analog VS digital correction factor of 6.8 dB in the meter. The DM800 also gives an under range warning below -20 dBmV, but will read lower when you press F1 for a single frequency reading as mentioned above.
 
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SteveZ

DTVUSA Jr. Member
#25
Rabbit,

Thank you for your detailed response!

Most of my service work uses the Acterna 4040D analyzer of vintage software from a 2002 purchase. You can see a detailed representation of the channel trace and have an accurate reading. Both are vital when seeting the operating level of a system amplifier in the field. You can see the early stages of cross-modulation and compression and note the level on various channels when you don't have a portable DTV decoder to confirm reception. The Sadelco DigiMax 800 is used to confirm DTV signal paramaters at the TV outlet. The single "check" function looks at everything and flags channels that are out of spec. The instruments are expensive but in a work situation, their features relate to time savings and reliable work.

My favorite analog Sadelco meters are the FS-3DVU and the Super 600 Digtial. Both were top service performers and one for more nearly 20 years until retirement in 2004. They continue to work quite well today. I don't often have the opportunity for low signal level measurements as practical antenna system noise levels in urban environments limit usable DTV sensitivity to about -15 dBmV.
 
#26
Steve: Thanks for more info about how you used your test equipment.
I don't often have the opportunity for low signal level measurements as practical antenna system noise levels in urban environments limit usable DTV sensitivity to about -15 dBmV.
That's certainly true for VHF, especially VHF-low. Trip has that problem at home with PBS on CH3.

I can hear the increase in power line noise when I tune 2-6 on my 719E.
 
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R

radiopierre

Guest
#29
radelco model 600 and 600 b digital

Thanks for posting this. I have an analog Channel master meter model 7277-c and find the needle pinpoints signal very well. It still works for antenna selection and location of the aerial installation. Thanks again. The only problem is finding how low in the minus reading is the minimum for an acceptable level? In other words what minus reading is the zero d.b. in the analog world of good level to shoot for?

Hello all,

I have two radelco 600 and 600b digital the firts one seems to be ok but he second has some false contact when swith on , the problems is tht i dont have the manual nor the service manual would anybody help me if any cost for copy i will pay for . thank you in advance and hope somebody is there

Pierre
 
T

test1

Guest
#30
Hello all,

I have two radelco 600 and 600b digital the firts one seems to be ok but he second has some false contact when swith on , the problems is tht i dont have the manual nor the service manual would anybody help me if any cost for copy i will pay for . thank you in advance and hope somebody is there

Pierre
Pierre. The Sadelco 600 and 600B DIGITAL series SLM's were the first generation units (Z80 microprocessor) by the company, and the ones I was directly responsible for. I suspect that Sadelco Factory service is no longer available on these Late 1980, early 1990's models. You can check on the Sadelco website.

For any forum members interested in a little Sadelco Inc. history:
A brief company photo archive can be seen at Home - SADELCO R&D CALIFORNIA (TM)

joey
cheers
 

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