type of antenna???

gilloz

DTVUSA Jr. Member
#1
I read in the GoodTimeLosAngeles.com website that all the local stations were going to UHF after the transition. Because of that website I removed my VHF antenna and installed a twin bay bow tie type of antenna with preamp and rotor. Now I am hearing that some of the upper VHF channels will be changing their format to Digital and staying in the VHF band. Has that been confirmed? Did I make a mistake in removing my VHF antenna. I have been watching DTV since last July with no problems on all channels. Will I lose my upper VHF channels when they return to the VHF band? UGH! The combo VHF/UHF antennas do not have the gain that my twin bay bow tie antenna does. I live 75 miles from the station transmitters.
 

ercjncpr

DTVUSA Member
#2
I read in the GoodTimeLosAngeles.com website that all the local stations were going to UHF after the transition. Because of that website I removed my VHF antenna and installed a twin bay bow tie type of antenna with preamp and rotor. Now I am hearing that some of the upper VHF channels will be changing their format to Digital and staying in the VHF band. Has that been confirmed? Did I make a mistake in removing my VHF antenna. I have been watching DTV since last July with no problems on all channels. Will I lose my upper VHF channels when they return to the VHF band? UGH! The combo VHF/UHF antennas do not have the gain that my twin bay bow tie antenna does. I live 75 miles from the station transmitters.
There is, unfortunately, still some mis-information floating around about this whole thing. I am in the Los Angeles Market also. KABC (7), KCAL(9), KTTV(11) and KCOP(13) will be abandoning their temporary UHF channel assignments at various times during June 12th and will be moving back to their original VHF frequency. All others will be UHF.
 

Jason Fritz

Administrator
Staff member
#3
I read in the GoodTimeLosAngeles.com website that all the local stations were going to UHF after the transition. Because of that website I removed my VHF antenna and installed a twin bay bow tie type of antenna with preamp and rotor. Now I am hearing that some of the upper VHF channels will be changing their format to Digital and staying in the VHF band. Has that been confirmed? Did I make a mistake in removing my VHF antenna. I have been watching DTV since last July with no problems on all channels. Will I lose my upper VHF channels when they return to the VHF band? UGH! The combo VHF/UHF antennas do not have the gain that my twin bay bow tie antenna does. I live 75 miles from the station transmitters.
Is that 75 mile distance from TVFool.com results or an approximation? RabbitEars.Info shows that there are 26 stations available in the Los Angeles market; about how many stations are you receiving now?
 

gilloz

DTVUSA Jr. Member
#4
Thanks guys for your responses. That distance is an approximation by me looking at my map of the area. At my last Auto Scan, I receive 45 stations. Unfortunately, for me, the majority are in either Vietamese, Korean, Chinese and Spanish. I have done about 4 scans since last July and yield gets higher with each scan. I haven't even turned my antenna around to see what I get in other directions other than Los Angeles. And ercjncpr, you are exactly correct in what you say. That is the information I got from AntennaWeb. I guess I should just wait and see what happens after June 12th. BTW Jay, the distance is probably closer than 75 miles, like 60 miles. Thanks guys.
 
#5
at 60 miles you are a little long for a 2 bay antenna if you wish to stick with this type an 8 bay would work better most of these type antennas will pick up some high VHF signals but not as well as a VHF. my suggestion is to stack the UHF 4ft over a wineguard ya-1713 VHF and combine with a channel master 7777 pre amp this will give you the best of both worlds without sacrificing performance in one area as combo antennas do.
 

Piggie

Super Moderator
#6
at 60 miles you are a little long for a 2 bay antenna if you wish to stick with this type an 8 bay would work better most of these type antennas will pick up some high VHF signals but not as well as a VHF. my suggestion is to stack the UHF 4ft over a wineguard ya-1713 VHF and combine with a channel master 7777 pre amp this will give you the best of both worlds without sacrificing performance in one area as combo antennas do.
Their antennas there are on a mountain overlooking the LA valley. There are people that distance I have seen with LOS out 70 miles.

He made only need a moderate VHF antenna, but with out TVFool plot I would not even try to guess.

Odd though possible, even at 60 miles there are places in that market a preamp will overload.

We need the TV Fool plot to give a good answer how much VHF he needs and if it's or isn't a good idea to run a preamp.
 

gilloz

DTVUSA Jr. Member
#8
Thanks all for your replies. OK, this is what I have: Channel Master 8 Bay Bow Tie antenna with the Channel Master UHF preamp on a rotor and all on a telescoping pole 30 ft high, presently pointed towards Mount Wilson. I am using RG-6 coax cable to a Channel Master CM-7000 DTV Converter Box. Most of my stations are around 65% signal level. The rest are at 100% signal level. You tell me what it means when I select Channel 7 on the DTV and I get Channel 7.1. If I go to the UHF channel 53, which GoodTimeLosAngeles.com says KABC should be, I get ZIP, NADA. So, if AntennaWeb says that KABC will be on VHF after June 12th, could the fact that selecting Channel 7 on my DTV box and getting now, means I will still get it after the 12th?
 
#9
Ok channel master 8bay will get VHF high but does not have high gain on VHF as on UHF I still might put a YA_1713 wineguard 4 ft under it and combine with signal combiner if you think a pre amp would overload the tuner, if not I would use the channel master 7777 to combine the antennas this would give you the best possible chance on both bands.
 

Piggie

Super Moderator
#10
Thanks all for your replies. OK, this is what I have: Channel Master 8 Bay Bow Tie antenna with the Channel Master UHF preamp on a rotor and all on a telescoping pole 30 ft high, presently pointed towards Mount Wilson. I am using RG-6 coax cable to a Channel Master CM-7000 DTV Converter Box. Most of my stations are around 65% signal level. The rest are at 100% signal level. You tell me what it means when I select Channel 7 on the DTV and I get Channel 7.1. If I go to the UHF channel 53, which GoodTimeLosAngeles.com says KABC should be, I get ZIP, NADA. So, if AntennaWeb says that KABC will be on VHF after June 12th, could the fact that selecting Channel 7 on my DTV box and getting now, means I will still get it after the 12th?
The confusion you are getting is back in analog days if a station said it was Channel 7, it was on channel 7. Not anymore and I have complained about this since day one, but I was talking to a wall.

Now with your KABC. Even maybe a little more complex. In the Analog days they were on ch 7. Then when they built their digital transmitter they used ch 53 for digital. However before transition if you tuned them in digital, the display still said ch 7, even though you were watching ch 53. Now the important part. Post transition they have to give up 53, as after transition the highest channel will be 51. So they had to move. So they moved back to their old channel of 7 for digital, after they shut off analog. I am not sure if KABC has moved back yet or has to wait until June 13 to move digital back to ch 7. Either way, those people that though, fine I am set for KABC, it comes in great will get a rude surprise on June 13th, if they don't also have an antenna that does VHF, because ch 7 is VHF.

I hope I cleared it up without being too verbose and confusing you more.

Now, here is the confusion. There is a real or actual channel where the station actually broadcasts. This is important because you have to pick antenna based on the REAL channel a station uses.

But because so many stations changed their real channel, they wanted to keep their old channel number not to confuse viewers (I think it got people more confused).

So lets take an example. Where I live we had a station that was ABC network. They were on Channel 20 for ever on analog. When digital came along they moved to Ch 16, but still call themselves TV20, and on the converter box display it show ch 20. But in reality they are transmitting on channel 16. Now that is not bad, as the same type of antenna that anyone was using to pick up 20 on analog will work on ch16 digital. No big deal here, and some people don't even know they are not actually on ch20 anymore.

Then take the ABC in Jax, FL. For years they were on ch 25 analog. When digital came along they moved to ch 10, even though anyone that receives them ok in town still sees 25 on the converter box. But now the problems begin! See 25 is a UHF channel and 12 is a VHF channel and each one requires a different antenna or a combo antenna that picks up both. So suddenly people on the fringe need a new antenna to pick up that ABC and have to add a VHF antenna or buy and install a combo antenna.
 

Piggie

Super Moderator
#11
Ok channel master 8bay will get VHF high but does not have high gain on VHF as on UHF I still might put a YA_1713 wineguard 4 ft under it and combine with signal combiner if you think a pre amp would overload the tuner, if not I would use the channel master 7777 to combine the antennas this would give you the best possible chance on both bands.
I agree completely. The CM 4228 is a good UHF (if it's an old one) which his sound like it's been up long enough to be one of the old ones.

Just add a Winegard YA-1713 VHF antenna to the the 8 bay already up there.

What we don't know is if you need an amp, but it sounds like the one you are using now isn't hurting anything.

If the one you are using now doesn't do VHF also you will need a CM-7777. If the one you have does do VHF but only has one input you will need a UVSJ to combine the two antennas. They are about $10.

Let us know your tvfool.com plot and what type of preamp you own by model number.
 
#12
Today, on my way home, I saw many "color TV" antennas stuffed into trash cans. Our RCA antenna would have had the same fate, it it weren't for the A-Neutronics amp I put in the line. Other amps didn't raise the signal well enough. Hopefully the Lava system would do the trick, as A-Neutronics is out of the antenna market.

There's also a Terk stick antenna hammered into one of the beams in the attic, but that failed to get any signal at all, with or without the power injector.
 

Piggie

Super Moderator
#13
Today, on my way home, I saw many "color TV" antennas stuffed into trash cans. Our RCA antenna would have had the same fate, it it weren't for the A-Neutronics amp I put in the line. Other amps didn't raise the signal well enough. Hopefully the Lava system would do the trick, as A-Neutronics is out of the antenna market.

There's also a Terk stick antenna hammered into one of the beams in the attic, but that failed to get any signal at all, with or without the power injector.
I would have stopped and grabbed every one of them! I have taken them apart used element to build single channel yagis. Very easy to do if you have enough elements to play with, a drill and some #6 or #8 screws to replace the pop rivets for placing elements where you want.

you can remove the front for a UHF only antenna with little to no modification except moving the boom to mast clamp. Most of the time it's the low band elements that are mangled.

Or a few of them not too damaged you can build a single channel yagi very easy in a hour or so.

=======

I have zero, no, none practical experience with the Lava. But just looking at from an engineering stand point, the thing can't have any gain on VHF. I think it works fine for people with signals NM signals in the 50's maybe 40's on VHF. Maybe call it something between an far urban to suburban signal level, where an inside antenna works if you stand on one foot and touch the ceiling but fades a little now and then on an indoor antenna. Then I believe 90% of the good Lava experience comes from mounting the antenna outside or up higher off the ground than an indoor antenna. So to that end it works. One can, and I have done it, take a dipole or folded dipole, suspend it from it's ends and get it up 30 to 40 ft in the air. The reception is amazing. Try it sometime if you have the time. Take an FM twin lead (folded dipole) and suspend it with string between to tall trees or something and get her up 30 to 40 ft. You will hear FM stations from way out of town. Even hooking it to a TV on VHF it works surprisingly well. It's too big for UHF and would need a preamp to over come coax loss anyway.
 
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gilloz

DTVUSA Jr. Member
#14
Wow! So much information to digest. Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. For now, I will wait until after June 12th to see what happens with my 2-13 channel reception. I will take note on the suggestions for possible future utilization. My VHF/UHF 18 element Yagi is presently stored in my garage all folded up. The confusing part of all this is the fact that I can receive channels 2-13 with my DTV box and even the channel ID on the screen shows, for example, CBS-DT 2.1 or KABC-DT 7.1, which tells me that in fact they are already transmitting in the Digital format. So how is the Analog signal being transmitted? As I mentioned earlier, most of my VHF channels are 100% signal strength or a little less, but not by much. I talked to a Channel 7 representative the other day about this and he did not sound very knowledgeable about the bands, frequencies or anything too technical. This was the DTV Transition hot line. Yeah, right. Anyway guys, I will wait until after the transition takes place, and then go from there. I really appreciate your insight and the fact that you didn't talk down to me like I was an idiot. Thanks again.
 
#15
the LAVA A-2605 works well on VHF and UHF out to 60+ miles have installed two really surprise me my Mom need a cheap antenna this little jewel did the job big time. cheap but works. had a control box go out called summit source and they sent a new one no problem. also contacted company in Calf and they also sent one for 10 bucks.
so they backup their stuff
 

Piggie

Super Moderator
#16
The confusing part of all this is the fact that I can receive channels 2-13 with my DTV box and even the channel ID on the screen shows, for example, CBS-DT 2.1 or KABC-DT 7.1, which tells me that in fact they are already transmitting in the Digital format.

I really appreciate your insight and the fact that you didn't talk down to me like I was an idiot. Thanks again.
You just pointed out one of the biggest mistakes made by the FCC, NAB and the local stations.

They did not make it clear on their PSA ads to people that most stations have been transmitting both digital and analog since about early 2007, some years earlier with the first ones on the air from WTC when it was hit on 9/11. NYC also lost it's DTV in that attack until everyone could move back to the ESB where they had been up until the WTC was built.

So my point is all these stations all over the US when to the expense of building out a digital transmitter while their analog was still running but didn't bother to tell their viewer they could go ahead and switch! And it cost them a bundle to build a new transmitter and power both of the with their electric bill.

So yes they are all (bar a couple) already running digital. The ads they ran made a LOT of people think that it was a flash cut date of analog ended on Feb 17 (now June 12) and digital began. Far from the truth in most cases, where they have been running dual transmitter for the last 2 years. In some cases they share on transmit antenna and some, they put up new antenna.

And you are welcome for explanations, as I too was not born with this knowledge.
 

Piggie

Super Moderator
#17
the LAVA A-2605 works well on VHF and UHF out to 60+ miles have installed two really surprise me my Mom need a cheap antenna this little jewel did the job big time. cheap but works. had a control box go out called summit source and they sent a new one no problem. also contacted company in Calf and they also sent one for 10 bucks.
so they backup their stuff
I really don't like to use mileage to rate an antenna. One doesn't know how high it's mounted, or how high or how much power on the station antenna has.

I live 37 miles from WNBW using RF Channel 9 off their 107 degree radial, which has a -10db Normalized Field(dB) from their null pointed at WFTV. This gives them an ERP in my direction of about 490 watts, not Kilowatts. I doubt that antenna would work at my house at 37 miles. This is a very extreme example I admit but it's less then 60 miles.

What bothers me is people and manufacturers take the farthest possible distance an antenna will work under perfect conditions such a high power station that is Line of Sight and use that as the range of the antenna. While if fact it is, but again leaves off too much information for people to understand in most cases the range is somewhat to much less.

Just doesn't take into account enough factors. I am sure it works well as a suburban antenna with an average signal strength. After all the three things that really make a TV antenna work better is

1) get it outside
2) get it as high as possible (most of the time)
3) the more aluminum in the air, normally the better reception
 
#18
Today, on my way home, I saw many "color TV" antennas stuffed into trash cans. Our RCA antenna would have had the same fate, it it weren't for the A-Neutronics amp I put in the line. Other amps didn't raise the signal well enough. Hopefully the Lava system would do the trick, as A-Neutronics is out of the antenna market.

There's also a Terk stick antenna hammered into one of the beams in the attic, but that failed to get any signal at all, with or without the power injector.
lol :thumb:
 
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