Utah creates... immigration law?

MrPogi

Moderator, , Webmaster of Cache Free TV
Staff member
#3
Cake.
And eat it, too?

I don't get it, the legislature is crazy here. Just last week they rammed thru a bill restricting citizen and news access to e-mails and other electronic communications. It was created behind closed doors, had no public debate and was passed within 48 hours. Nobody wants to talk about it.

As for the immigration, we have lots of legal and illegal immigrants here - I think they are trying to appease both sides by passing both bills so they all can get re elected.

Utah is one of only 3 states that lets illegals have a drivers license, BTW:
States Revise Rules on Driver's Licenses for Illegal Immigrants as National ID Approaches - FoxNews.com

From the article:
"One reason why we have such large scale illegal immigration is because we've made it so easy. ... We say, 'Don't come to the U.S. but as long as you're here, we'll give you what everybody else has,'"
 

Orrymain

, Blogger: Orry's Orations
#4
I just think it's insanity. Lawbreakers shouldn't be treated like they aren't lawbreakers. Now don't make the mistake of assuming where I stand on the issue, it's just like you said ... cake, pie, and ice cream all three, and that I'm against. It's one or the other.
 

n2rj

Moderator
Staff member
#5
Yeah, I don't think states can pass immigration laws specifically granting visas or legal resident status unless they secede and become their own nation.

After all, was't Eric Holder telling us that immigration is exclusive to the Federal Govt and that's why they sued Arizona for enforcing immigration law?
 

MrPogi

Moderator, , Webmaster of Cache Free TV
Staff member
#6
Correct, Ryan. However, there is nothing stopping law enforcement from checking and reporting immigration status. Only problem could be if they just check Mexicans - it needs to be across the board, or it will be shot down.

And they can't create a "guest worker program" legally. Only the federal gov. can issue the visa required. Otherwise, they are just as illegal as any other illegal immigrant.
 

Orrymain

, Blogger: Orry's Orations
#7
You can't arrest the entire town and that's what it comes down to. How many Americans carry around their passports or birth certificates? They'd jail us all.
 

Trip

Moderator, , , Webmaster of: Rabbit Ears
Staff member
#8
And courts have ruled that the Constitution allows you to not have to carry ID on you if you're just walking down the street. If I recall correctly, if a cop asks, you are required to provide your name and nothing else.

- Trip
 

n2rj

Moderator
Staff member
#9
And courts have ruled that the Constitution allows you to not have to carry ID on you if you're just walking down the street. If I recall correctly, if a cop asks, you are required to provide your name and nothing else.

- Trip
That is only true for US citizens. If you are not a citizen, the Gov't can require you to carry ID. In fact if you are a green card holder you are required to have your green card with you at all times. That has been the law for many years now.
 

n2rj

Moderator
Staff member
#10
You can't arrest the entire town and that's what it comes down to. How many Americans carry around their passports or birth certificates? They'd jail us all.
I don't think this is what people are asking for, and honestly the people use the whole "discrimination" excuse to keep the status quo where illegals fly under the radar.

What would be nice is not issuing driver licenses to illegals (Utah issues licenses to illegals) as well as asking for immigration status when people are arrested, especially for violent crimes.
 

Trip

Moderator, , , Webmaster of: Rabbit Ears
Staff member
#11
That is only true for US citizens. If you are not a citizen, the Gov't can require you to carry ID. In fact if you are a green card holder you are required to have your green card with you at all times. That has been the law for many years now.
But how do you tell the difference? If you're a cop and you ask me for ID and I say, "No, I'm a citizen," then what?

- Trip
 

n2rj

Moderator
Staff member
#12
But how do you tell the difference? If you're a cop and you ask me for ID and I say, "No, I'm a citizen," then what?

- Trip
You can ask when you arrest someone for another crime or based on reasonable suspicion (a warrant might be required).

If everyone were simply able to say "I'm a citizen" then even the border patrol would be able to arrest no one.

In fact for every crime if people could simply say, "I'm innocent" and walk away no one would get arrested for anything.

Traffic stops are what they want to target. If a cop stops someone for a traffic violation, then asks to search their car based on reasonable suspicion, such as an open container in the car, smell of weed etc they could make an arrest then ask for their ID. Usually people consent to having their car searched as there is really little other choice because the cop isn't just going to let you go if you say no.

By the way, lying to the police or immigration is one of the worst things you can do if you ever want to have any chance of being legal, amnesty or not. A lot of immigrants (legal and illegal) choose not to lie about their status to the authorities as a result.
 
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Trip

Moderator, , , Webmaster of: Rabbit Ears
Staff member
#13
I'm not arguing with any of your post, but if a cop randomly stops you on the street and asks for your ID and you are a citizen, you are allowed to say no. I was responding to Orry's comment about arresting an entire town. What reasonable suspicion could possibly justify something like that?

- Trip
 

n2rj

Moderator
Staff member
#14
I'm not arguing with any of your post, but if a cop randomly stops you on the street and asks for your ID and you are a citizen, you are allowed to say no. I was responding to Orry's comment about arresting an entire town. What reasonable suspicion could possibly justify something like that?

- Trip
The whole story about randomly stopping people and asking for papers is just FUD drummed up by pro (illegal/amnesty) immigration groups and the media to sensationalize the story. Nothing of the sort is going to happen. What is going to happen is that someone already arrested and charged for another crime could be questioned about their immigration status and dealt with appropriately (deportation, extradition, exclusion etc).

Even the much reviled Arizona law was only intended to give law enforcement more teeth to incorporate immigration enforcement into regular law enforcement. They specifically barred racial profiling in that law.

And I don't think anyone is going to arrest an entire town and ask for papers... this is just more sensationalism.

But while we're at it, what would you do if you were in a position to address the problem? Forget the economic impacts of illegal immigration, such as wage depression. What would you do about criminal illegals who commit violent crimes, trespass and attack land owners and smuggle illegal drugs?

And about Utah - why is their granting of work visas not a federal responsibility? Why is the federal Government not making anything of this? This was the same argument the Government used against the Arizona law.
 

Orrymain

, Blogger: Orry's Orations
#15
The problem with the laws in Arizona and I'll guess in Utah is that it was more complicated than that. While it's been the 'man on the street' that we've all focused on, the Arizona law actually has a few other provisions that are quite scary. You have to read the entire context to know all that is included. Most of us don't do that.
 

n2rj

Moderator
Staff member
#16
The problem with the laws in Arizona and I'll guess in Utah is that it was more complicated than that. While it's been the 'man on the street' that we've all focused on, the Arizona law actually has a few other provisions that are quite scary. You have to read the entire context to know all that is included. Most of us don't do that.
I've read the law many times. Tell me what you have a problem with.
 

MrPogi

Moderator, , Webmaster of Cache Free TV
Staff member
#17
I have to comment here that those that have come to this country legally are mostly supportive of cracking down on illegal immigration.

They spend tons of time and money to do it right, waiting for ridiculous amounts of time, only to watch as law breakers are eventually granted a blanket amnesty and go to the head of the line. They resent that, and as natural born citizen who has gone through the process, for my wife and relatives, legally - I do too. If you're here illegally, you are a criminal, and as such should be booted out and never allowed back. I don't care that 2 of your 5 kids are US citizens because they were born here (a loophole we seriously need to close!). That doesn't make their parents automatic citizens, nor alter the fact that their children's citizenship was obtained by mommy and/ or daddy breaking the law.

The immigration system is F'd.
 

MrPogi

Moderator, , Webmaster of Cache Free TV
Staff member
#18
In related stories (Category: Utah government is screwed up)

The repeal of H.B. 477: Passed withing a week with little or no public debate or notification, HB 477 restricted public and press access to all electronic communications by elected government officials. Only public outrage forced the overturn.

Budget cuts will force 13 Utah liquor stores to close
: Utah's state run liquor stores are a major revenue generator for the state, however, the legislature has decided to cut the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control's budget. This will cost about 150 part time and full time workers their jobs. This whole fiasco will end up costing the state more than it saves. I smell a rat, and that rat is a large tax exempt organization headquartered in Utah, who shall remain nameless, lest I be accused of slandering this most honorable cult and their stranglehold on the state and local governments. Because being opposed to the theocracy is wrong.
 
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scandiskwindows9x

Moderator of DTV Latino
#19
Too late those measures, they think that the work lost in America are by the immigrants, yes in part can be and by another part can be a mesurement to take control of the strong illegal immigration from the mexico border to the United States , we in Chile are facing similars problems with the peruvians and central americans that are coming here to live, is ok that they come here but we got the worst of the worst in here, also we in chile tend to think if are columbians or central americans or are they doing laundering or are just simply doing illegal commerce with prostitution and those stuffs.

Maybe the Utah signal is that the want to stop the illegal immigration from the mexican border.

best regards
Francisco
 
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n2rj

Moderator
Staff member
#20
I have to comment here that those that have come to this country legally are mostly supportive of cracking down on illegal immigration.

They spend tons of time and money to do it right, waiting for ridiculous amounts of time, only to watch as law breakers are eventually granted a blanket amnesty and go to the head of the line. They resent that, and as natural born citizen who has gone through the process, for my wife and relatives, legally - I do too. If you're here illegally, you are a criminal, and as such should be booted out and never allowed back. I don't care that 2 of your 5 kids are US citizens because they were born here (a loophole we seriously need to close!). That doesn't make their parents automatic citizens, nor alter the fact that their children's citizenship was obtained by mommy and/ or daddy breaking the law.

The immigration system is F'd.
Yep.

We waited 13 years to get immigrant visas for my mom, me and my brothers. Loads of paperwork, and loads of MONEY just in fees to the gov't. If we had used a lawyer it would have been even more money!
 
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