Who is thinking the DTV thing is going down like hot sick?

Aries

DTVUSA Member
#1
Since it started, we've had issues with coupons, people losing lots of channels, channels being compressed resulting in sharp quality loss, and general issues almight across the country.

Who thinks that the whole thing was poorly executed? Personally, I think that it would've turned out a lot better if both were used for a while, and analog was phased out as all problems were resolved.
 
#2
Since it started, we've had issues with coupons, people losing lots of channels, channels being compressed resulting in sharp quality loss, and general issues almight across the country.

Who thinks that the whole thing was poorly executed? Personally, I think that it would've turned out a lot better if both were used for a while, and analog was phased out as all problems were resolved.
:deadhorse:

Bottom line is, it's good for most of us and bad for a small percentage who live in fringe areas.

coupon program = gigantic success

digital transition = overwhelming success with less than 2% not read for DTV by June 12

dtv reception = ok, i'll give you that one but it's not as bad as you say IMHO.
 

Piggie

Super Moderator
#3
The transition was handled terribly.

That is now only for the history books, it's over.

Searching Piggie posts on Google you will find my complaints pre-transition.

But those days are gone.

That said fringe viewing will never be the same. Unless they have satellite TV, I have noticed those I know that are OTA only are watching less TV. Find out there are other things than getting half way through a program to watch it drop out.

Even my strong UHF's that are 99% reliable, will drop at the worst times for 30 seconds often only once a night but at the wrong time.
 
#4
I had the same problem with satellite that it was one of the few reasons i cancelled it. I live in a forest and getting reliable satellite is worse or the same as maintaining reliable OTA viewing percentages. i've had the same issues with Dish having my program drop out in the climax. same with OTA. the difference is now i don't have to wait for the receiver to reboot itself like with satellite. with OTA it flashes out for a few then instantly comes back. no 'Acquiring signal 1-5, 2-5, 3-5, 4-5, 5-5 wait for program guide' which could take up 10 min then just drop out again and process repeat.

Plus i don't pay $39.99/mo plus taxes and fees for crappy signals.

I do wish however that they can make Satellite TV as easy as Satellite Radio. that is a simple magnet to the skin of a car or mobile home or dish outside and no aiming, just a sky view and you got it.
 

Piggie

Super Moderator
#5
I had tree troubles also. I moved my dish to a better hole, and went with a bigger dish. Now it take a massive rain storm to loss signal. I also put the DVRs on a UPS, after all they are computers. Saves reboots during power glitches.

But I understand.
 

bicker

DTVUSA Member
#6
:deadhorse:

Bottom line is, it's good for most of us and bad for a small percentage who live in fringe areas.

coupon program = gigantic success

digital transition = overwhelming success with less than 2% not read for DTV by June 12

dtv reception = ok, i'll give you that one but it's not as bad as you say IMHO.
Absolutely. It is beating a dead horse -- we've gone over this before here. But if folks want to go around the block again....

The transition was handled very well. I think anyone who expects such a transition to go any better is delusional about no less than the nature of society and humanity. The criticisms routinely grossly overstate the extent of the issues, ignore the fact that the issues themselves were all well predicted and accounted for in the original plans (not that they wouldn't happen, but that they would, and that that was okay), and in general peremptorily place the critic's own personal situation, or that of some small minority, over that of the vast majority of others. In a way, it is like people who got drafted for military service complaining about the draft, essentially because they got selected.

Some of the reception problems, such as the two days of bad reception we had on WHDH, here in Boston, can be attributed to private companies, like Sunbeam Television, making bad decisions for themselves, that adversely affected their viewers. The suggestion that the government should have treated Ed Ansin like a baby, essentially telling him that his request to save money, and conserve energy, was foolish, is ludicrous. This is a free country, and private companies should be allowed to make such decisions for themselves. Besides, it is ridiculous to suggest that a government agency could have made such a proscription without getting raped in the press for forcing a private company to waste energy and money. The reality of society and humanity, that I referred above, prohibits such things, and we have no choice but to maturely accept the price of living in community with others.

Analog and digital were "both ... used for a while". Alternative approaches along these lines, again, ignore the nature of society and humanity. Regardless of when that switch took place, and how, and in what order, criticisms would have been launched by the same critics, for the same reason: Simply because they personally didn't benefit from the transition, and so they want to impose their personal judgment regarding its value onto everyone else, as if those critics are the only people who's concerns and values matter. Indeed, I think many of the calls for different arrangements for the transition were just cynical attempts to make the transition take place in a less integral manner, so that it could more easily be attacked, and/or thwarted, for the selfish reasons I mentioned above.

And so on...

So yeah, we've beaten this horse to death already, but anyone who wants to go around the block a few more times, turning the discussion into glue, perhaps, I'm game.
 

Eureka

DTVUSA Member
#7
I get more than twice as many channels as before, and since they're digital, many are HD and all are free of ghosts or snow. The only unreliable channels are VHFs 9 & 10, which dropout frequently when the summer afternoon/evening thunderstorms roll in.

So, I think it's a success, at least UHF channels.
VHF: I give it a D-
 
#8
VHF sucks. anyone want to create a thread on what the letters V H F stand for? Lucky i only have two VHF channel bombs. but when i put two ancient dipole rabbit ears and used a separator balun to separate the UHF and VHF antennas i can independenly re-aim without disrupting the other channels. i now have the two VHF services @ 70-80%. just outside the breakup range of the DTVPal Plus (breaks up below 64%)

For me to get satellite it would mean having a dish right smack dab in the driveway itself, embedded (only window to the proper satellites) in the concrete, and a 200' Coax RG-6 cable to my home, which means also i'd need to rent a ditch witch to bury the darned thing, and pray that nothing happens to the cable underground (moles, rats, etc)

No thanks. Dish Network i'm done with. it wasn't a power cycle which made it reboot, when the signal is lost, it has to go through a whole long routine to re-acquire the satellites, as opposed to OTA just coming back when the condition which caused the loss passes.
 
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Piggie

Super Moderator
#9
My SD DirecTV DVR just waits for the signal to come back. Only reboots on power loss.

VHF is maybe the worst in a deep fringe area. I only receive VHF from Jacksonville. UHF can't make it over the 2 edge refraction. So I can't even complain about Jax UHF since I can't see it anyway, nor Orlando, though I can receive their one VHF often but not consistent.

The VHF I should be watching for NBC and I am well inside the grade B contour only runs 470 watts ERP. That is like trying to see a couple of spot lights at 37 miles. With 12 plus dbd up 30 ft that puts me 6 db more gain than suggested by the FCC's contour, but in fact they are just barely above the cliff. It doesn't take anything for them to drop below it.

VHF would have been fine if (high band) they all ran 100KW or so (at least upwards of 66 KW or so. Then they had spaced them at 200 to 250 miles (at 250 they could run 100KW) Then fringe would seem more like it did on the old VHF.
 

Piggie

Super Moderator
#10
The digital transition could have been handled better.

The fact we made it through it means a lot of stuff went right.

But the horse is dead.

I think others are wrong, they think I am wrong. Which means no one is right. Or if this were politics everyone would be called a left. But in fact what is left are only a few CA, LP and TX stations on analog....
 

O-O

DTVUSA Member
#11
Analog and digital were "both ... used for a while". Alternative approaches along these lines, again, ignore the nature of society and humanity. Regardless of when that switch took place, and how, and in what order, criticisms would have been launched by the same critics, for the same reason: Simply because they personally didn't benefit from the transition, and so they want to impose their personal judgment regarding its value onto everyone else, as if those critics are the only people who's concerns and values matter. Indeed, I think many of the calls for different arrangements for the transition were just cynical attempts to make the transition take place in a less integral manner, so that it could more easily be attacked, and/or thwarted, for the selfish reasons I mentioned above.

And so on...

So yeah, we've beaten this horse to death already, but anyone who wants to go around the block a few more times, turning the discussion into glue, perhaps, I'm game.
By your standards, anyone who posts here about being unhappy with their reception issues is just imposing their person judgement onto everyone else? Yet it's ok for you, based on your own good experience to completely discount anyone else's bad experience as, "routinely grossly overstate the extent of the issues"?

You've also attributed YOUR town/state's problems to private companies but this only accounts for a minority of persons who are experiencing problems after the transition.

I do not live in a fringe area, yet I've had some real world experience with neighbors, friends, and family who have had to spend more money purchasing a better antenna. It's not that they couldn't receive digital signals. It's the fact that they had to spend more on antennas and or cabling.
 

Piggie

Super Moderator
#12
The suggestion that the government should have treated Ed Ansin like a baby, essentially telling him that his request to save money, and conserve energy, was foolish, is ludicrous. This is a free country, and private companies should be allowed to make such decisions for themselves. Besides, it is ridiculous to suggest that a government agency could have made such a proscription without getting raped in the press for forcing a private company to waste energy and money.
The FCC had set power levels high enough for most VHF stations if they choose to do so. However the FCC's contour maps of VHF stations running less than about 25 KW were and are still exaggerated. This lead managers to dismiss engineers at local stations saying the FCC says we cover it. I have heard this from many chief engineers that knew good and well they would have problems being underpowered.

By your standards, anyone who posts here about being unhappy with their reception issues is just imposing their person judgement onto everyone else? Yet it's ok for you, based on your own good experience to completely discount anyone else's bad experience as, "routinely grossly overstate the extent of the issues"?

Moreover it appears that is you complain about the status quo as O-O suggests (at least to me) then you are just a malcontent and bring nothing to the table.

It is your opinion and it's a dead dead dead horse now, but I would never say it went "very well" unless you consider how well it went despite the mistakes. Then I would say yes, it went well despite the shortcomings and mistakes.
 

bicker

DTVUSA Member
#13
By your standards, anyone who posts here about being unhappy with their reception issues is just imposing their person judgement onto everyone else?
Anyone who denies all the work that was done, and anyone who denies that the problems being encountered were foreseen and considered reasonable compromises, yeah, I guess that's a good description. My personal experience is irrelevant. This is a matter of the objective facts of how much work was put in, and how much the problems people are experiencing were expected. Considering the small set who are having trouble and ignoring the vast majority not is not reasonable.
 

bicker

DTVUSA Member
#14
This lead managers to dismiss engineers at local stations saying the FCC says we cover it.
Ansin still elected to file for the transfer back to VHF7, despite that. His choice. The FCC would not have forced him to switch back. It's on him.

Moreover it appears that is you complain about the status quo as O-O suggests (at least to me) then you are just a malcontent and bring nothing to the table.
This is a dead horse. You want to see all the arguments against the myopic whining, read all the old threads too. I'm just giving you the highlights. It is time to accept reality and move on.
 

Piggie

Super Moderator
#15
Ansin still elected to file for the transfer back to VHF7, despite that. His choice. The FCC would not have forced him to switch back. It's on him.

This is a dead horse. You want to see all the arguments against the myopic whining, read all the old threads too. I'm just giving you the highlights. It is time to accept reality and move on.
I never said the FCC should force or make stations do things. I said the information they gave out to determine the results of were wrong causing station (mostly in management) to come to the wrong conclusions. Simply saying they should have known better make it sound like you have never worked in a station when engineering says you really don't want to do that, and management says well that is not what we are going to do.

If I am an industry insider, at least from the past how are my views about what happened myopic?

I said it was a dead horse and over, done, but to say it went smooth and very well in all aspects is not facing reality to me.
 
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